Air Source Heat Pumps

M.Tucker

dullnote wrote: »

I too have a ASHP and happy, but as other here if you can get mains gas go for it, I think running my ASHP is just about as cheap but costs a lot more to purchase.

Mains gas if available is a must, remember government talking about no grant if you have access to mains gas, this tells you something

Understanding tho' that the grant that is now £1300 for Air to Water systems, or the RHPP is taken OFF the RHI payments anyway...so whether you are on grid or not, this £1300 is practically meaningless if you can afford the initial lay out.

M.Tucker

karter wrote: »

I have just had a system installed but I am not happy with the kit provided as it is not the equipment that was discussed at the time of sale. I was quoted on a CTC system that included an intelligent thermal store as well as CTC ASHP.

The have installed 2 eco warrior heat pumps 12Kw & 9Kw. This has the 2 outside units plus 2 indoor inverters. The tank that has been installed is a Powerflow 210 litre tank that has no expansion options for heating a pool or wood pellet heating.

They have also replace 15 of my radiators but to be honest it looks like most of them are the same size as the ones taken out. There are a few that are bigger but not many. the construction of the new radiators looks identical to the ones replaced. The single vane radiators that have been replaced with double vane ones I am fine with.

I have only paid £5300 of the quoted price of £19300
My suspicion is they have installed cheaper inferior products to maximise profit and I am dreading the electricity bills that I presume I am going to be hit with.
They have also promised savings and RHI payments from the govt totalling £50k over 7 years based on the lowest payout figure. They have also confirmed that payments will be backdated to the date of my installation.

Any advice on how to deal with this would be greatly appreciated.

Number 1 - Your payments will most definitely not be backdated to the point of installation, but all installations from Sep 2009 will qualify to have the RHI payments start in Spring 2014...so you will get the RHI based on it being qualifying tech, but it will not be backdated no.
2. Check the EPC done [energy performance certificate], there will be an estimated KWh in heating suggested for your porperty, the RHI [at the moment] is paid over 7 yrs for a 20year deemed usage.
[So KWh x 20 /7 = ...] This will give you expected payments on lowest case of 6.9 pence use.
3. I'm not certain replacement of radiators is necessary where a powerflush could be a very real option for most people, but it would depend on system, is it microbore, what did they replace piping with? etc
4. Yes, it does seem a bit expensive...

M.Tucker

Cardew wrote: »

Welcome to the forum.

Do you have a written specification for the £19,300 quote?

Also is their promised savings(over what??) and RHI payments in writing. To save £50k in 7 years(over £7,000 a year!) is just a joke.

Why are you dreading electricity bills? Surely the whole purpose of getting a heat pump was to reduce electricity bills.

Heat pumps are to reduce heating bills, the only instance it would reduce electricity bills is in an electric only property..and even then that's a calculation deemed on property and use...

Alfiethefish

I have just obtained a quote for fitting an Ecodan W85VHA2 8.5 KW Air to Water heat pump. The property is a 4 bedroomed 18 year old end of terrace home with LPG radiator heating, double glazed to current standard with 100 mill insulated loft ( will put another 200 mill in to meet current standards ) and with PV installation for electric and hot water supplied of thermal roof panels. We have a concrete first floor and solid walls throughout the property.
Our current LPG bill is around £ 2400 a year and Electric is £ 480 a year less the £ 150 a year we get back from selling excess to the grid. So assume £ 2700 for total energy. I am told the cost of running the Ecodan will be £1000 per annum so we shud see a total saving of around £1200 to £ 1400 a year worst / best case.

Installation cost of £8000 against a new LPG boiler quoted at £ 3 K so £ 5 K difference on installation to make up. So my calculation is 5 years to recoup at worst and maybe 3.5 years at best and that is without the £ 1300.00 grant I am told can probably be obtained. I am wondering if this is too simplistic to be correct? We can not have gas as the National Trust is holding everyone here to ransom with a strip of land they want us to pay fortunes for to run gas into the site. Any views.

[Deleted User]

Alfiethefish wrote: »

I have just obtained a quote for fitting an Ecodan W85VHA2 8.5 KW Air to Water heat pump. The property is a 4 bedroomed 18 year old end of terrace home with LPG radiator heating, double glazed to current standard with 100 mill insulated loft ( will put another 200 mill in to meet current standards ) and with PV installation for electric and hot water supplied of thermal roof panels. We have a concrete first floor and solid walls throughout the property.
Our current LPG bill is around £ 2400 a year and Electric is £ 480 a year less the £ 150 a year we get back from selling excess to the grid. So assume £ 2700 for total energy. I am told the cost of running the Ecodan will be £1000 per annum so we shud see a total saving of around £1200 to £ 1400 a year worst / best case.

Installation cost of £8000 against a new LPG boiler quoted at £ 3 K so £ 5 K difference on installation to make up. So my calculation is 5 years to recoup at worst and maybe 3.5 years at best and that is without the £ 1300.00 grant I am told can probably be obtained. I am wondering if this is too simplistic to be correct? We can not have gas as the National Trust is holding everyone here to ransom with a strip of land they want us to pay fortunes for to run gas into the site. Any views.

What are you getting it connected to UFH, Fan Coils or vastly oversized rads?

£1000 a year running costs seems high with solar?

If they are just bunging in a ASHP with bundled Kingspan tank with minimal plumbing seems like a nice little earner...

I've got a spare 14kw EcoDan in my garage going for a fraction of that with only a few months use

Horsey02

Hello everyone

I have been reading this forum with some interest as we wish to install an ashp but we are struggling to decide whether it would be to our benefit. We have just moved to a house converted from two 1860 cottages, which has been extended over the decades to five bedrooms a large kitchen, dining room and a large lounge. We currently have oil ch and dhw and 11 radiators, we have been quoted £19000 to have an ASAP underfloor heating in the lounge only and oversized radiators elsewhere. We are in the process of obtaining several quotes but I am struggling with the difference in opinion between these 'green' companies. I have been told that as we have solid walls ashp would not be beneficial and that a biomass boiler would be better. Also, no one has told us about the defrost cycle, that is something I have read on this forum! I don't want to pay out that considerable amount of money and find we would not save anything!

We do not intend on insulating the walls as this would be another £10000, we are considering solar panels to assist with the electric of the ashp.

Please help....confused...

Cardew

Welcome to the forum.

Firstly solar panels. Whilst they may, or may not, be a sensible investment in their own right, their contribution to an ASHP will be limited as they, obviously, produce nothing at night and not much in winter when you need heating.

Secondly you need to consider if your house insulation(solid walls and you don't intend to insulate) will qualify for RHI and FIT.

Thirdly it is possible that your house is totally unsuited to an ASHP, you need to read the new Energy Saving Trust info on heat pumps. You can bet your bottom dollar that a prospective installer is not going to tell you and lose a job. There are some links and discussions on the last couple of pages of this thread:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2968958

The economics of spending £19,000 on an ASHP, when you already have oil CH, surely cannot make sense. On phase 2 of the EST trial, after lots of modifications, the average COP(SPF - system gain) was 2.45. So if you able to get an average COP your savings over oil CH would be?? This extract from the EST report is helpful:

How much can be saved with a heat pump?





Heat pumps have the potential to reduce running

costs compared with oil, direct electric, LPG, or solid

fuel, and can provide substantial carbon savings over

their lifetime. Depending on the fuel displaced, an air

source heat pump could save between £150

(replacing oil) and £530 (replacing electric economy

7 storage heating) per year with 1,400 – 5,700 kgCOsaved per year respectively.



These figures are based upon





an average performing heat pump (2.45 ASHP – based on
trial SPF









H4









data) installed

in a








well-insulated, detached home

Note the 'well insulated detached house'.

Even if you have £19,000 the lost interest of that at a meagre 2% is £380pa and a lot more if you have to borrow the £19k

P.S.
Sorry about the formatting in the quote!!

matelodave

I've got an ASHP and it serves us well (installed three years ago), but our bungalow has double glazing, cavity wall insulation and 300mm of insulation in the loft. If you can't get decent insulation then I reckon you'll be very disappointed twice - once in it's capacity to heat the house and secondly in the running costs.

Solar PV won't help much if at all, the unit consumes most power when it's cold and dark and least when it's sunny and warm, exactly the opposite of what a solar panel can generate.

I went for it because we were stripping out old storage heaters and doing a total refurb which meant that I could fit underfloor heating all over the bungalow and I didn't want an LPG or oil tank out in the garden (no mains gas anywhere near us). The incremental installation cost of the heat-pump over other forms of heating wasn't excessive - about £3k. We only paid 5% vat on the whole heating installation (instead of 17.5%) which reduced our costs a lot although we missed out on any of the renewable heat premium payments.

I'd guess that it saves us about £500 a year on our heating bills which I reckon will give me a payback of about six years (it could be even more if the governments RHI eventually kicks in).

nande2000

£19k for an ASHP including new rads and underfloor heating in one area seems excessive.

ASHP does work well if you get a reputable installer, my advice would be to get lots of quotes and get to know about the technology.


There are certainly lots of Charlatans trying to push biomass (woodpellets) at the moment as well, be wary of cheap biomass solutions with vague warranties.


What is wrong with your current oil system, what do you intend to achieve with changing system ? Maybe a new oil system or staying with the current system is best for you.

TiredGeek

Your building dates from a time when lime mortar was used. You have solid walls.
DO NOT INSULATE THEM!

Lime mortared walls from that sort of era work in a different way to modern walls: you (probably) have no DPC so moisture rises in the wall and evaporates away from them surface. Same as rain, it wets the wall and soaks in, then evaporates away.
So far so good.
Insulation stops the evaporation, even if you only do one side of the wall. What now happens is that the moisture builds up in the masonry and if you're lucky you just get damp in the house. Unlucky, and over a period of time the lime mortar starts to break down and then the wall starts to collapse leading to extremely extensive and expensive repairs being required.

There's no reason not to go with ASAP if you can get a good company to fit it.
My place is not the correct sort of building in theory (solid walls, minimal insulation) but after some rather expensive !!!!-ups it's now working great.

Do the maths carefully, for you it might not add up