'Hugh's Chicken Run' A Moral Dilemna for DFWs?

littlevet1

fc123 wrote: »

Indoor reared pigs are worse. The UK banned sow stalls (all british pigs are outdoor reared now)

Sorry, this isn't true.

The majority of pork produced in the UK is NOT produced outdoors. This document http://statistics.defra.gov.uk/esg/evaluation/pirs/section2.pdf page 14 suggests that "outdoor production accounts for 20-25% of breeding sows in the UK" - although I can't find anything more up to date at the moment.

Farrowing crates/sow stalls are certainly still in use. Current legislation (The Welfare of Farmed Animals (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2003) states the following:

7. - (1) The dimension of any stall or pen used for holding individual pigs in accordance with these regulations shall be such that the internal area is not less than the square of the length of the pig, and no internal side is less than 75% of the length of the pig, the length of the pig in each case being measured from the tip of its snout to the base of its tail while it is standing with its back straight.

- (2) Paragraph 7(1) shall not apply to a female pig for the period between seven days before the predicted day of her farrowing and the day on which the weaning of her piglets (including any piglets fostered by her) is complete.

and
31.If they are placed in farrowing crates, pregnant sows and gilts shall be thoroughly cleaned.
45.Where a farrowing crate is used the piglets must have sufficient space to be able to be suckled without difficulty.

This legislation can be found here http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2003/20030299.htm
It basically means that sows can be placed in crates from 7 days prior to farrowing, until weaning (21-28 days in most units). Incidently, a farrowing crate allows the sow to stand up and lie down, but she cannot turn or move around. The aim is to reduce piglet death by the sow lying on them. There are many reports written about their effectiveness, and regarding their impact on animal welfare. I haven't done a big search but there are a few references sited on this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestation_crates

Indoor pig units are, in my opinion, factories aimed at maximising profit with little regard for animal welfare. However the situation in the UK is better than other European countries. In Denmark I believe there is no restriction on the use of farrowing crates and sows can be kept in them permanently (I haven't checked this so please prove me wrong if you know otherwise).

regards
littlevet1

novelli

pania wrote: »

But why should it have to suffer misery before it dies? for the price of a bit of sunlight? it is still a life no matter how minor.

Thats not for me to answer, but its for me to make the fmaily budget go as far as possible in difficult times



farm shop chickens are cheaper than tesco chickens and taste nicer and the animal has had a good life.

farm shop chickens are not cheaper than tesco.

"thats life?" why not make your dog suffer then? or put your cat in a room with no sunlight? it's still a life. why different for a chicken than a pet?
because my dogs are not alive simply to be eaten, which chickens are im afraid, thats life!

No of course we shouldn't spend above our means but your outlook seems a little callous. if you ever get the opportunity go visit one of these places, or visit an abbatoir.( i have actually)! your opinion on how farm animals are treated will change in a second.
i have no wish to visit one, im quite happy with my tescos chicken thanks. I know the animals are made to suffer, but i cant do anything about that. i can assure you it would not change my mind because i agree with you that they are not treated fairly but i cant afford to vote with my purse and believe there are far more important things to worry about, people do not have to eat chicken if they dont want to.

There are people in this world that CAN stand up for the animals and nothin gis being taken away from children by them doing this. things CAN be changed for the better
look at the banning of veal raising in this country.
numerous voices can acheive masses for very little or no cost.

yes too true, if only more knew of the suffering in human lives on a daily basis and campaigned more for that!!! massess could be acheived if these issues were highlighted, and i believe that they are more inportant issues than chickens!!

we should all consider ourselves fortunate that we have meals on the table and a roof over our heads, much of the world doesnt have that.
if we didnt eat them they would not be born in the 1st place. thats no excuse for making them suffer, but its true.

themaccas

When I was growing up my parents had a very tight budget and chicken was a treat because it was expensive. I have been buying cheap-chicken for ages but the recent programmes have changed my mind and we'll be going free-range and buying it less. There's plenty other food to make a dinner with.

margaretclare

This was how I grew up. Chicken was never a 'cheap meat', in fact, people didn't talk about chicken at all in those terms. There were hens, which were kept to lay eggs, there were cockerels, and chickens were simply baby hens and cockerels, which, nowadays, they're not given the chance to become.

Whenever we had chicken (or hen, rather) it was as a treat e.g. Christmas.

I've watched parts of the 3 programmes - couldn't bear to watch some of it. Watching the last 10 minutes or so, my DH said 'There is absolutely no excuse for cruelty'. He now agrees with me, and that's important, because he's the one who goes round the supermarket. I hate supermarkets and would avoid them all the time if they hadn't got such a stranglehold of the way everybody now does their shopping.

We are now committed to buying only free-range chicken and free-range eggs. We're retired wrinklies and we'd like to go back to the way we thought about meat when we were growing up - less meat eaten, but more flavour: quality rather than quantity, in other words!

What it's going to take is not only buying free-range chickens over industrially-produced ones, but boycotting all the other forms of 'chicken' i.e. chicken portions, plastic boxes of chicken thighs, chicken nuggets (which are made from 'recovered meat'!), chicken burgers at McD's, chicken and chips and all ready-meals containing chicken.

Margaret

wherediditallgo

A friend & I have just been talking about this on our way to work. He said he can understand why people wouldn't want to see the chicken or any other creature harmed, but he'd have more faith in their opinion if they just decided not to eat chicken in the first place & therefore reduced the demand for it. If someone gave him the impression or actually told him that they were going to kill him on 10 March, giving him a feather bed to sleep on & all manner of expensive gadgets & food between now & then to keep him entertained wouldn't change the fact that they were going to kill him on or around a certain date. If that person wanted him to have a good life, they would let him live until he met his end naturally, not just live until a date that suits them. If people are saying they care about how the chicken lives but are happy to see it die because they want to eat it (as opposed to need to eat it), that rather weakens their professed concern for the animal, because liking chicken doesn't justify its death. I found it hard to argue with that point of view, because it's not essential for most people to eat chicken.

Hugh's show did more to convince me of reasons to give up chicken than convince me to change to free range permanently. He might take a more involved route to get there, but he still kills chickens & sells them for profit, just like the supermarkets. I'm willing to give free range chicken a try, but if I find it too expensive then it's back to standard chicken I go. Guilt-tripping people who are on low incomes doesn't get the rent & other bills paid. If those people are going to eat chicken at all, they'll go for what represents the best value for money to them. When someone else is paying the bills, they can say what the money goes on.

chevalier

Since 2001 I have been lucky enough to live near a good butcher. At my old house the butcher was voted one of the best in England. The one I am near now, rears its own herd of cows, sources its pork locally ish, and the only chickens ITS SUPPLIES WHOLE are free range. So there is no cheap chicken to be had.

But I find that my meat bill for a month is about £70. I can easily get a months worth of meals out of that for a family of four. Yes I do buy some extra meals at the supermarket, eg fish fingers etc, but not the meat. To me supermarket meat tastes of nothing, (and yes I do season my meat).

So I use my local butcher and we all enjoy it. I would choose to buy less of something else to maintain going to my butcher.

regards
chev

Essex-girl_2

I have Tesco 2 for £5 chickens in my freezer and I will use them.

However my OH & myself have decided to get our meat in future from our local butchers and farm shops, not bothered about organic personally but will be free range.

We will still be visiting Mr T's & Asda but for a lot less.

Think a lot ofpeople are changing their minds - when our local town as its farmers market it is packed out and could do with being weekly rather than monthly. However some people will never change their minds - my inlaws have pots of money but buy cheap meat because they just dont care.

immoral_angeluk

I buy what's cheapest. Our shopping budget has to stretch far to feed 2 adults and 2 children under 3 and a kitten on £50 a week including nappies...
To be fair I try not to think about it

Imelda

As a non meat eater this series of programs has reaffirmed my decision not to eat meat.

The problem I see with the campaign is that by encouraging people to buy free range chickens the price, in the short term at least, will increase. This may then have the effect of forcing people, even those who previously bought free range, back onto the cheaper chicken.

One thing I would have liked to have seen was what else the lady who refused to buy free range chicken because of the price (can't remember her name) bought in her weekly shopping. Fair enough if she had cut the rest to the bone but I can't quite reconcile buying something where ill treatment has been involved (and she has seen it first hand) when for the sake of sacrificing of a couple of ready meals/ junk food/ fizzy drinks/alcohol (delete as appropriate) she could have bought the free range option.

Sorry if that seems out of line, just my personal opinion- quality of food has always been important to me.

got-it-spend-it

I think what many have said is absolutely spot on- free range meat is more expensive but the key is to buy less of it. I don't eat meat, but if I did (or if I cook meat for family) it would have to be free-range. Why not try having a couple (or extra) couple of veggie meals a week? A bag of red lentils is about £1 and I would probably get six meals (cooking for four people at a time) out of that. Much cheaper than cheap or free-range chicken! If anyone would like any cheap veggie recipes, let me know- it can really reduce your food bill by going meat free every now and then.

I'm not trying to convert people to veggie here- it's absolutely everyone's choice to eat meat, but I do believe that everyone should make an effort to eat more ethically produced meat.

Someone above said that there are bigger problems in the world than chicken welfare, but surely it's about affecting the things that you can effect-- making a difference where you can.

Lucy x