'Hugh's Chicken Run' A Moral Dilemna for DFWs?

ZTD

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

ZTD wrote: »

It takes many thousands of years for a new tooth to be developed, so we've been eating meat for at least long enough for our bodies to have changed design for it.quote]

It was your quote above I was referring to...I remember reading the comparisons from a book by the 'Society for Krishna Consciousness
So maybe a cows small and large intestine may be larger than I qouted? but it still shows the comparison between a meat eaters.

Between a meat eaters what?

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

Meat eater has claws for tearing flesh from animals.
Herbivore no claws.
Human no claws.

A sloth has claws, and not fancy ones either.


Squirrels have claws. Hamsters have claws.

Various lizards have claws, both herbivores and carnivores.

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

Meat eater no skin pores, perspires through the tongue.
Herbivore perspires through skin pores.
Human perspires through skin pores.

Dogs sweat, but only through the pads of their feet (hence dogs have smelly feet) - exactly the same way as mice. Rabbits sweat, but only through their lips.

Non-mammals such as lizards and birds don't sweat - either carnivore or herbivore.

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

Meat eater sharp front teeth for tearing, no flat molar teeth.
Herbivore no sharp front teeth has flat rear molars.
Human as herbivore.
Humans lack the sharp front teeth for tearing flesh that are characteristic of carnivores.

Canines? Incisors?

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

Meat eaters generally swallow their food without chewing it and therefore do not require molars or a jaw capable of moving sideways.

Yes, but we eat plant material too - that's why we're omnivores. So we have molars too.

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

Also the human hand, with no sharp claws and with it's opposable thumb, is better suited to harvesting fruits and vegetables (not just grass) than to killing prey.

We're primates. Primates have hands. There are some carnivore primates, and they have hands too.

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

The kidney is also adversely affected by toxins from meat.

A bit of a fluffy statement.

Birthwort (a plant) causes kidney failure. No amount of meat can cause kidney failure.

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

Moderate meat eaters demand three times more work from their kidneys than non meat eaters

That's a very fluffy statement...

What diet? All meat eaters are not the same, and all vegetarians are not the same. The kidneys' job is to filter out urea which is deposited in the bladder. Urea is formed from amino acids. That's what protein is made from.

It looks like you're arguing protein is bad for you because it causes work for your kidneys (and indeed bladder).

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

and as one grows older the risk of kidney disease and failure can greatly increase.

As indeed does everything. Including incontinence, drooling and purple hair-rinse.

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

I do feel that we are more akin to a herbivore than a carnivore, which is what my post was about.

We are neither, we're omnivores. We also eat insects, (insectivores) though the culture is the West is normally against it.

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

After looking at the comparisons what are your thoughts.
Dizzy x

It's very much a mantra from the vegetarian brigade. I've seen it repeated time and again. The wrong lengths of intestine (for human, carnivore and herbivore) is also repeated time and again.

I try to avoid using "agenda" sites as references (though I often do use their references) unless what they're saying is verified by other people. In the race between "facts" and "agenda", "agenda" wins too often alas.

sparklygirl1

I think it's a personal choice. I buy free range if not organic. I don't want to put the 'cheep meat' on the table for my family. You have to wonder not only is it inhuman but is it healthy to be eating these chickens? The more space, light and generally better conditions animals live in the healthier both in mind and body they have got to be.

dizzy_lizzie

Thanks ZTD
Did you look at the link I posted re. James Gold. As a former bone specialist I tend to take his word more seriously than 'the mantra from the vegetarian brigade' as you say. I also wouldn't say that Bristol Cancer Heath Centre was 'the vegetarian brigade'. (As quoted in post 151)
Quote-Birthwort (a plant) causes kidney failure. No amount of meat can cause kidney failure.Unquote You probably eat more meat than Birthwort though.
Eating too much protein produces more nitrogen than the body requires. The kidneys expel the extra nitrogen through urine,which strains them and can cause reduced function. High protein diets can also lead to more uric acid in the urine, which does not easily dissolve and can form kidney stones. Protein needs are automatically met by a balance plant based diet.
Thanks for taking the time to post and referring to my points. I'm not going to individually go through your post (which I could) as we would just be going round and round and getting nowhere.

I do appreciate your post but we will have to agree to disagree.
Dizzy x

Geenie

sammiboo wrote: »

I have gone out of my way NOT to watch this program, i know it will really upset me......

Three years ago I worked at a bird Sanctuary (for 10 years) I used to look after thousands of birds each year. We used to have ex battery hens (they probabaly still do)

I dont think people appreciate how intelligent chickens are, the ones at the sanctuary if it was particularly cold would wait outside the front door to the main building for me to open up and they would follow me into the building. I would put on the gas fire in the food prep room and they all would lie on the floor around the fire to get warm

When we move and have a bigger garden i want my own chickens, my OH is very aware of this since the day he met me

I am not veggie as i am not strong willed enough but i dont agree with the way animals are bred for food and the conditions they are kept in

As someone who has kept bantams and chickens in the past I wouldn't associate intelligence with these birds!! Have you seen the size of their heads and what brains they could possibly contain? !!! They are programmed to eat and follow a food source, nothing more, so will follow you if they have seen before that you give them food and a nice environment. But that aside, I agree with you totally and they deserve a decent life like any other creature on this earth.

I hate caged birds of any sort, whether for food or as a family pet stuck in an aviary or cage in a house.

ZTD

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

Thanks ZTD
Did you look at the link I posted re. James Gold. As a former bone specialist I tend to take his word more seriously than 'the mantra from the vegetarian brigade' as you say.

Never take the word of someone for what they worked as. Hear what they say, then go and do your own research. Believe nothing until you have proved it for yourself.

You would be astounded about what is taken as fact, which is completely wrong. Does anyone remember when margarine (hydrogenated trans-fats) was good for you?

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

Birthwort (a plant) causes kidney failure. No amount of meat can cause kidney failure. You probably eat more meat than Birthwort though.

Yes, but I can never eat enough meat to cause kidney failure.

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

Eating too much protein produces more nitrogen than the body requires.

If you're eating too much protein - eat less. That's not a specific feature of eating meat. Or indeed protein.

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

The kidneys expel the extra nitrogen through urine,which strains them and can cause reduced function. High protein diets can also lead to more uric acid in the urine, which does not easily dissolve and can form kidney stones. Protein needs are automatically met by a balance plant based diet.

Or indeed by a balanced diet with meat in it... But turning this on its head, you don't get much carbohydrate from meat, but carbohydrate causes problems with insulin having to be produced and puts a strain on that mechanism eventually leading to diabetes.

There isn't an epidemic of kidney failure in the western world, but there is one of diabetes. Perhaps plants are bad for you...

dizzy_lizzie wrote: »

Thanks for taking the time to post and referring to my points. I'm not going to individually go through your post (which I could) as we would just be going round and round and getting nowhere.

I do appreciate your post but we will have to agree to disagree.
Dizzy x

That's fine - my original statement way-back-when was just pointing out that it is fine to eat meat if you want. But I hope if anyone comes up repeating the intestine thing, or the sweat thing, or the hands thing you'll be able to say "That's not true."

Or more importantly *will* say it.

dizzy_lizzie

Geenie wrote: »

As someone who has kept bantams and chickens in the past I wouldn't associate intelligence with these birds!! Have you seen the size of their heads and what brains they could possibly contain? !!! They are programmed to eat and follow a food source, nothing more, so will follow you if they have seen before that you give them food and a nice environment. But that aside, I agree with you totally and they deserve a decent life like any other creature on this earth.

I hate caged birds of any sort, whether for food or as a family pet stuck in an aviary or cage in a house.

Geenie this makes for interesting reading.

Bird brained?

posted by Scarlet, 1 March 2006 23:16
Many people believe that the term 'bird brained' is an insult, because chickens and other birds are stupid. Scientist, however, have proven that chickens have the comparable intelligence of a 3 year old human child. They are equally as intelligent as most primates, and more intelligent than cats and dogs. People are now realising the hidden intelligence behind chickens...

It has been discovered that chickens have over 30 different 'noises'. They have a specific danger call, and then 3 more descriptive danger calls to say whether the predator is on land, in the air or on water.

Chickens can recognise and differentiate from up to a 100 chickens - no small feat when you think how similar they often look! They recognise their fellow flock members by facial features, much the same as how we recognise our friends.

It has also been discovered that chickens know an object is still there when it has been buried, which is more intelligent than a two year old human child.

As part of an experiment, scientists dyed half of the corn fed to a flock of chickens red, and added a chemical to make the chickens ill. The chickens quickly realised that it was the red corn making them ill, and when they gave birth they guided the offspring away from the red corn and back to the naturally coloured corn. The offspring then gave birth to a new generation and they, too, guided their children away from the red corn. So next time somebody calls you bird-brained, take it as the complement it is!

Dizzy x

ZTD

Geenie wrote: »

As someone who has kept bantams and chickens in the past I wouldn't associate intelligence with these birds!! Have you seen the size of their heads and what brains they could possibly contain? !!!

It's shocking how much you can achieve with so little.

But I would guess that like dogs, chickens vary by breed as to how bright they are.

So don't diss the chicken... Turkeys on the other hand...

ecoelle

Surely what we eat is a personal choice but i think it is odd that so many people seem to eat huge amounts of meat. I think that we had a better diet and more money in our pockets when we only ate small amounts of meat, or meat was a luxury item that was eaten in the late autumn and winter after slautering of animals. Maybe if we all ate a little less meat then we could all afford to buy the better quality or more humanely treated? I think part of the problem is that we are so used to 'cheap' meat that we have forgotten how much it should really cost, feeding an animal, looking after it, nurturing it, paying the wages of farm workers, surely we value or own health to the point of forgoing daily meat and just having good quality meat every so often?

dizzy_lizzie

ZTD wrote: »

. It takes many thousands of years for a new tooth to be developed, so we've been eating meat for at least long enough for our bodies to have changed design for it..

No, this was the point I was referring to.
As I said I could refer back to your points then you mine etc etc. Just because I haven't done that don't assume I consider you correct. You have your references and I have mine. I will continue to believe we are more akin to a herbivore (I didn't say we are herbivores) and you otherwise, that's what makes the world go round.
But thankyou again for your posts I have appreciated them x

fc123

skint_spice wrote: »

I refuse to feel guilty about it just because it's the latest middleclass crusade. Sorry Rog but Jamie Oliver and Hugh are getting right up my nose at the minute.

If I had the money I would buy organic, free range everything but I don't so I'll just live with it and try to save the planet in my own small ways.

The write ups prior to the show said that it was intended to encourage those who COULD afford free-range to do so (like my friends who live in 1.5 mill house, have BTL empire and a VERY big lifestyle....I was shocked to discover she buys Smart-price chicken etc!).
I don't think Hugh FW intended to put those, who really can't afford the choice, on a guilt trip.

My daughter was at Primary in S London and her school participated in the J. Oliver scheme.

It was interesting to see all the diff reactions of the parents.

I had no idea that the school dinners were so terrible.

Am off to look at my teeth now:D