Boiler moved and doesn't work now - asking for payment

Section62

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82140634#Comment_82140634

I assumed they moved the pipework with the boiler. They could do all-new pipework, but if the old pipework was in reasonable condition then all it would do is to pad out the bill for extra work and materials.

Most of the soldered joints are also dull grey - the colour you'd expect from older work - which suggests the old pipes have been relocated as they were, rather than the plumber using new second-hand pipe. I'd guess the boiler was mounted a bit higher up the wall in the kitchen which allowed the pipes to be cut near the floor and simply transferred (with the boiler) from one location to the other.

The point is there is nothing (of concern) which would cause fairly uniform red-brown oxidation of copper pipework in the space of a few weeks, this is just an age thing. If the oxidation was green and patchy that would point to leakage.

WIAWSNB

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82140608#Comment_82140608

"If WB have accepted this as a warranty repair I'n not sure I'd want to rock the boat and potentially make things harder for myself. Do you know the failure wasn't due to a manufacturing error?"

Do you think WB were aware of the full circumstances of the swapped pipes. Do we know if WB were aware of…

From what we've been told, WB themselves are not going to carry out the repair - the installer is. The installer just wants WB to pay for it as a warranty claim. They even had the audacity to suggest to the OP that their incompetence may not be covered under warranty 'cos she didn't have a service for 3 years (another thing they were wrong about).

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about 'rocking any boats' - I'd happily let WB know about the incorrectly installed pipes (with a pic…), because in this whole scenario, I'd be very confident I'd make the installer redo it properly, and not charge me a penny. Or else I'd get a competent GS to do so, and sue them.

Even keel.

Section62

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82140675#Comment_82140675

…because in this whole scenario, I'd be very confident I'd make the installer redo it properly, and not charge me a penny. Or else I'd get a competent GS to do so, and sue them.

I think you underestimate the difficulty/cost/hassle/stress of doing this with a trader who doesn't want to comply. Suing the trader would be particularly problematic if WB have agreed to a warranty repair and the OP has unilaterally told WB they don't want it to be done as a warranty repair.

This one has plenty of potential as a "Money Moral Dilemma" thread, but the important thing for the OP would surely be getting the boiler working with the least stress and expense?

angelasocks

Hi

Thanks for all the comments.

The engineer that came told me that the pipes were crossed and this has probably caused the sensor flow fault.

It was someone from the office who rang and said the pipes were not crossed. From this I gathered the engineer who visited was wrong.

I understand what you're saying that the boiler repair would not be covered under warranty if they messed up the pipes. But if they messed up the pipes it would be for the company to fix at no extra cost to me.

Proving they caused the fault is difficult. I don't know very much about boilers at all. I don't know if the photo proves anything as I don't have a photo of the boiler after it was moved and before the engineer came. I do have a photo of the boiler before it was moved though.

If I contact WB with the photos, I risk the repair not been done.

Warranty: I have heard online that WB aren't too strict about missing a service but if a fault happened in the same year you missed they wouldn't honor the warranty. WB only asked me if it has been serviced last year. WB also said they have authorised this repair under warranty.

The company have not contacted me to arrange the repair. I'm reluctant to ring them again in case they just tell me they are waiting for WB to authorise the repair (even though I know WB have). I don't want them to know that I know WB has authorised the repair.

Thanks again everyone, very kind of you all.

angelasocks

Boiler before move.

Boohoo

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82141163#Comment_82141163

Oh my giddy aunt!

That's worse than the photo of where it is now.

Saying that I have seen worse installations.

Where is the boiler now in relation to the kitchen?

Above it in the bedroom or a different place further away?

Section 62 said something about reusing pipes.

Section62

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82141142#Comment_82141142

The engineer that came told me that the pipes were crossed and this has probably caused the sensor flow fault.

I'm not convinced by this. You said previously that the boiler wasn't working when only the basin tap was open, but worked if you turned on the bath tap. If the flow was going the wrong way, and the flow sensor was only capable of sensing the flow in the correct direction, then you'd expect the boiler not to work at all. There may be something about the characteristics of the sensor which mean it could sense a high backflow but not a small backflow, but this would be in the territory of a technical expert or expert witness. The argument that backflow has permanently damaged the sensor is also a possibility, but it depends how the sensor works. Such permanent damage is also somewhat inconsistent with the boiler working with the bath tap on, but not with the basin tap. I wouldn't rule out the possibilty that reverse-flow has damaged the sensor but again that is territory for an expert witness to report on.

That WB were willing to agree a warranty repair so easily might suggest there is a known issue with these sensors.

Which means -

Proving they caused the fault is difficult.

…is something I'd agree 100%. One of the problems with fault diagnosis is that often there is more than one fault. Getting to the bottom of an issue may involve more than one attempt at repair whilst the multiple issues are worked through. As attractive as it might be to point the finger at one participant in this mess, it is quite possible for it to be true that the original wiring was incorrect and the flow sensor was defective and the installer mucked up the move. These things are not mutually exclusive…

If I contact WB with the photos, I risk the repair not been done.

So that's why I suggested that rocking the boat by telling WB you don't think it was a warranty issue might be a bad idea. You can't prove that the sensor wasn't faulty due to a manufacturing defect, which means trying to hold the installer 100% liable for the repair costs might end up leaving you with the bill (+potential legal costs).

p.s. the 'before' photo seems to confirm what I suspected that at least some of the old pipework has been reused with few changes.

Section62

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82141200#Comment_82141200

I suspect some of the 'giddy aunt' stuff was done by whoever stripped the kitchen out as a temporary lash-up so the OP wasn't without heating and hot water between the strip out and boiler move.

Would be useful if the OP could confirm.

angelasocks

I was having a kitchen refurb, the fitter stripped the kitchen and then I got the boiler moved. It's in the back bedroom now. I don't sleep in this bedroom. BTW Howdens and one of their fitters did the kitchen - and I'm very happy with them both, did a great job.

I don't think anything is going to happen over the weekend, so I'll see what they come back with next week.

As WIAWSNB said I have to give them chance to fix the boiler before I go down other roads I just hope they do and that I never have to deal with them again.

Thanks again everyone for taking time out to help me out with this.

WIAWSNB

Fingers crossed, Asocks.

Still curious as to when the pipe 'loops' were done - do you know?

I've no idea if reverse flow will still trigger the flow switch, fire the boiler, and ultimately provide 'some' hot water. It may well do, but clearly not in any normal fashion.