N180 – ELMS Legal & email/post

BlueSkiesFromNowOn

Thanks. I can make time for the call, it's just a bit unfair. But that's the name of the game here.

Also, there are some other dates I forgot to put on the DQ if this does potentially go to court. Can I just email these over to DQ.CNBC@justice.gov.uk?

ChirpyChicken

Or just ignore the call makes zero difference

Coupon-mad

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81973298#Comment_81973298

Ignore it. Mediation affects NOTHING.

BlueSkiesFromNowOn

I'm at WS stage and would appreciate a second pair of eyes..

My defence has always been that payment was made, but excel have been unable to match it to the VRM. They have now served their WS, landowner contract and a heavily redacted payment log.

Up until now I have referred to myself as the keeper, not the driver. Should I continue this narrative in the WS and at the hearing? Also, is it worth including a witness statement from someone who was with me at the time? Or would that just make things too complicated.

Points I'm looking at including in my WS:

• £4 payment made within minutes of arrival.
• Vehicle remained within the paid-for period.
• Claimant's own signs show £4 was the correct tariff.
• Claimant's own landowner agreement identifies XXXXXX as the landowner/client, which is the same name appearing on my payment evidence.
• Their payment log only shows no match to the full VRM, not that no payment was made.
• The redacted log does not show payment amounts, full VRMs, card transaction references or a complete audit trail.
• Challenging the additional £70 added to the original £100 charge.

I've drafted a WS based on the above, obviously you don't have all the details but hopefully the WS gives enough background. I'm redacting all the timings and locations cos I'm paranoid lol, I'll happily call out all this information once the hearing is over.

I, XXXXX of XXXXX, am the Defendant in this claim. I make this witness statement from facts within my own knowledge, except where stated otherwise. Where matters are not within my own knowledge, they are true to the best of my information and belief.

1. I am the registered keeper of vehicle registration XXXXXXX. I make this witness statement in support of my defence to the claim brought by Excel Parking Services Limited.

[To be added in] I am a litigant in person with no formal legal training. I have done my best to present my case and evidence clearly and truthfully, and I respectfully ask the court to take this into account.

2. The claim concerns an alleged parking event at XXXX on XXXX. The Claimant states that the vehicle entered at XXXX and exited at XXXX, giving a total duration of XXXX. The alleged contravention is that no valid parking session was associated with the vehicle registration mark.

3. I deny that the Claimant is entitled to the sum claimed, or any sum at all.

4. The central fact in this case is that payment for parking was made shortly after arrival. My evidence is that a £4 payment was made at approximately XXXX, within minutes of entering the car park. This payment corresponds with the tariff displayed at the site and was made during the period of parking.

5. The Claimant's own evidence confirms that a tariff of £4 applied for a parking session of the duration concerned.

6. I exhibit evidence showing a payment of £4 made to "XXXX" at approximately XXXX on the material date.

7. I also exhibit evidence of a purchase made at a nearby restaurant at approximately XXXX. This supports my account that I remained in the vicinity during the relevant parking period and that the vehicle left within the paid-for duration.

8. The Claimant's own landowner agreement identifies XXXX as the client and landowner in respect of XXXX Car Park

9. I find this significant because the merchant name appearing in my payment evidence is "XXXX". The Claimant's own evidence therefore establishes a direct connection between the entity appearing on my bank transaction and the car park in question.

10. The Claimant asserts that no payment was found matching the full and accurate registration number of my vehicle. However, this is materially different from asserting that no payment was made. The Claimant's position appears to be that their systems were unable to associate a payment with the full registration number entered into their records.

11. Throughout this matter my position has remained consistent:

a. A payment was made.

b. The payment was made within minutes of arrival.

c. The amount paid corresponded with the applicable tariff.

d. The vehicle remained within the paid-for parking period

12. Upon receipt of the Parking Charge Notice I appealed and provided evidence of the payment. I further requested copies of the payment records and a redacted list of vehicle registrations entered during the relevant time period so that the issue could be investigated properly.

13. The Claimant has now disclosed a heavily redacted payment log. In my respectful submission, this document does not establish that no payment was made.

14. The payment log does not contain:

a. Payment amounts;

b. Full vehicle registration marks;

c. Card transaction references;

d. Machine identifiers;

e. A complete machine audit trail;

f. Location-specific payment confirmation records.

15. The Claimant's witness statement relies on the contention that no payment can be matched to my full registration number. However, the payment log produced does not allow meaningful examination of whether a registration may have been partially entered, mistyped, truncated or otherwise recorded incorrectly.

16. The Claimant's own service agreement defines a valid ticket as one containing the full and correct VRM.

17. However, the existence of that contractual requirement does not answer the separate factual question of whether payment was made. My evidence is that payment was made and accepted.

18. The Claimant's service agreement also contains provisions stating that the system is not warranted to operate satisfactorily at all times and that the company shall not be liable for technical failures of the system.

19. Whilst I do not allege any specific malfunction, it is noteworthy that the Claimant seeks to place complete reliance upon its records whilst simultaneously recognising within its own contractual documentation that the system may not always operate correctly.

20. The Claimant's ANPR evidence shows that the vehicle remained on site for less than two hours. The Claimant's own tariff evidence shows that £4 was sufficient to cover a stay of this duration.

21. I respectfully submit that I was a genuine paying customer who paid the correct tariff shortly after arrival and remained on site within the paid period.

22. If there was any discrepancy in relation to a vehicle registration entry, this did not result in any loss of parking tariff revenue to the Claimant. The parking fee was paid.

23. The Claimant's witness statement repeatedly criticises my reliance on a bank statement. However, the Claimant has not adequately addressed the significance of:

a. The timing of the payment;

b. The amount of the payment;

c. The correspondence between the payment amount and the tariff;

d. The link between ~XXXX and the landowner identified in the Claimant's own contract;

e. My evidence demonstrating presence in the area during the relevant period.

24. I respectfully submit that the Claimant has failed to prove, on the balance of probabilities, that the parking tariff was not paid.

25. The claim additionally includes an enhanced sum beyond the original Parking Charge Notice. I dispute that these additional sums are recoverable and put the Claimant to strict proof that such sums were genuinely incurred and lawfully recoverable.

26. Taking all the evidence together, I respectfully invite the Court to conclude that:

a. A parking payment was made;

b. The amount paid corresponded with the applicable tariff;

c. The vehicle remained within the paid-for duration;

d. The Claimant has not produced sufficient evidence to disprove the payment made;

e. The claim should therefore be dismissed.

STATEMENT OF TRUTH

I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceeding

Coupon-mad

That's not the full Statement Of Truth but maybe you copied & pasted it & missed off the end.

Have Excel Parking dropped Elms Legal in the case yet (Elms only do the first bit) and have they - Excel - served their WS?

Do you both have the same WS deadline?

What is their deadline to pay the hearing fee?

BlueSkiesFromNowOn

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82104213#Comment_82104213

Yes - excel have served their witness statement, I have scanned all the correspondence so happy to post it here if it would help. They included separate corre from ELMS relating to payment of hearing fee which suggests ELMS are still involved from an amin perspective. I did copy/paste the statement of truth but thanks for pointing that out.

I believe we both have the same deadline, but I'm glad I waited until they submitted theirs because it's got a lot of information I can use as a counter-argument including the landowner agreement and payment logs. I need to submit my witness statement/court fees by Friday 21st Aug, however I'd prefer to do this sooner to save the worry.

Excel claim I should have provided the parking ticket. Is it reasonable to argue that where payment was made by card at a machine, a motorist would not necessarily retain a paper ticket? Especially where there is evidence of payment, timing and location etc. I also noticed there are duplicate VRM entries on the redacted log they sent which raises Q's.

Also, one of the small print T&Cs on the car park sign is £100 fine being issued for 'not registering the full and accurate VRM when making a payment'. The machine in this car park is deliberately set up to show error messages whilst you're keying in the number plate. Obviously I can't prove this, but the landowner contract says the agreement does not imply any warranty that the system will at all times operate satisfactorily without malfunction, and also says the company shall not be liable for technical failure of the system. Can I use this in my witness statement, or is this best kept in my back pocket for the hearing?

Apologies for all the Qs, at times I have questioned why I went through this whole process when I could have just paid the initial fine and be done with it. But at the same time I'm being punished for PAYING for a parking space and leaving within the allocated. More people need to stand up to these fraudulent business practices. Either way I have a funny feeling this is going to court, so I very much appreciate any help and guidance.

P.s I'm not a massive fan of using AI, but it has been particularly helpful throughout this whole process.

1505grandad

"Also, one of the small print T&Cs on the car park sign is £100 fine being issued…….."

A heads-up - I bet it doesn't

BlueSkiesFromNowOn

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82104730#Comment_82104730

I'm sorry, I don't understand? I took a picture of the sign and at the end is says 'A parking charge notice of £100 will be issued for the following'.. in smaller print below there's a bullet saying 'not registering the full and accurate VRM when making payment.'

1505grandad

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82104740#Comment_82104740

Precisely - there is no "fine" involved only a "charge" - which is nothing like a police or council etc "fine".

Coupon-mad

"Excel claim I should have provided the parking ticket. Is it reasonable to argue that where payment was made by card at a machine, a motorist would not necessarily retain a paper ticket? Especially where there is evidence of payment, timing and location etc. I also noticed there are duplicate VRM entries on the redacted log they sent which raises Q's."

Yes - it's perfectly reasonable for a consumer to say that and THEY have all the payment log records, so they know which amount of £2 or whatever, wasn't matched to a vehicle at the material time…

But there's more than that, there is a chance it could be falsified (a 'cut & shut' mock up) because it's a random unverified set of pages, with odd duplication. You'll need to search the forum for Excel v Ambler and put that transcript in. Read it! Bombshell case.

It is linked on threads here.