Thermaflow Boiler - Wet Electric Heating Tariff

Ectophile

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82087131#Comment_82087131

Something's been bodged there. There are 2 live outputs from the meter, and both go to the 4 pole switch marked "Property of Scottish Power plc". But only one of the lives comes out the other side. The 5th port from the meter doesn't actually appear to be connected to anything.

Obviously, someone couldn't be bothered to put the neutral through the switch as well, even though it has 4 ways.

The one remaining live is split in two through a junction box (Henley block), and some utterly shoddy wiring to that big switch unit on the right.

QrizB

Something's been bodged there. There are 2 live outputs from the meter, and both go to the 4 pole switch marked "Property of Scottish Power plc". But only one of the lives comes out the other side. The 5th port from the meter doesn't actually appear to be connected to anything.

Agreed. That's a dual-element smart meter that could in theory support two simultaneous dual-rate tariffs with ALCS load switching, but it's been installed so that only the primary permanent live connection is used.

OP you're relying on your own timers (the Hive) to do all your off-peak switching, as the 5th ALCS switched live terminal isn't connected to anything beyond the 4-way switch.

The one remaining live is split in two through a junction box (Henley block), and some utterly shoddy wiring to that big switch unit on the right.

I guess the T&E to the "big switch" is for the Thermaflow? OP, is this correct?

Scot_39

Metering

As above - wiring / meter choice wise - that seems a little interesting.

The 1422-B is a so called twin element meter - a specialist 5 port meter - that allows separate billing of the two ports - I'd say most e7/e10 meter setups do not.

Many e7 meters dont even have a restricted output.

It would certainly allow future flexibility if changed electric heating - and having port 5 wired to the switch at least gives a potential installer access to wire to restricted - subject to SP setting the meter appropriately.

And others with twin element meters - as above - have retained twin MPANs - and different tariff codings - rates and times - for primary and secondary.

Your set-up for more conventional SR or self timed e7 style TOU - everything live and any different tariff rates will apply to all your domestic use. Needing device timers to control time of use for heating if needed.

Tariffs

What tariff have SP given you on the new meter ?

Can you remember the tariff(s) before on old trwin/RTS. SP - and it's inherited customer base - I suspect probably had one of the longest selection of RTS and twin meter options.

https://www.scottishpower.co.uk/energy-efficiency/energy-efficiency-toolkit/electric-heating

SP may no longer offer most of the options - including - even those in the top half - going back to your very first post and question - economy 2000 - and explicitly dont the bottom half - so a new CS staff member may never have heard of most of them - but the Thermastore installation instructions still refer to how to wire for it.

My supplier rationalised it's tariffs years ago - dropping my RTS meter / tariff over a decade ago.

Many more so took the opportunity last June 30th iirc - when Ofgem had passed guidance that allowed them to drop many RTS and older vintage tariffs.

Heater Wiring

Looks like your heater is single wired (although they look to have used a two live feed isolator - assuming that the big switched block at bottom RHS)

[In past when checked some models - thermaflows could take twin - peak and off peak - feeds. Others just the one for both heat charge and control/pump power - and used an off peak timer to align with meter tariff timings.]

OP you're relying on your own timers (the Hive) to do all your off-peak
switching, as the 5th ALCS switched live terminal isn't connected to
anything beyond the 4-way switch.

Note that for some installs - on multirate tariffs like E10/E2000 even - they would also add an off peak charge timer to be set to match tariff - and I suspect thats really not the same as say your programmable HIVE - which I suspect then just controls output demand to the home.

See p19 of

https://thermaflowheating.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Electric-Boiler-TH12-450U-M3.pdf

Edit - i guess the hive might do both - "charge" and "heat" timings.

And if not on SR - if when on old RTS multirate these were set - your new smartmeter tariff might be - or if were to move to new TOU on smart - those timings may need changing.

Do you know - if have such a unit - and if so what times your thermaflow is set to charge it's storage tank - versus what times your hive is set to and runs the heating ?

However - a bit curiously in the site FAQs it says

"Thermaflow recommend using a comparison site to find the cheapest single rate tariff available."

[Then elsewhere quotes running costs at 15p/kWh ex VAT (ave SR today c26p inc VAT)]

Seems strange - given it was frequently tied with off peak tariffs like E10 and E2000 - with instructions given to wire for those two (and similar operating ) supply and tariff rate timing modes.

And although things like E10 were near impossible / restricted these days - I wonder if thats strictly true.

Whether one of the old like E7/E10 if can find it (Ovo at least now will quote me knowing I'm on EOn Next legacy only e10 metering) or as sometimes they give more low rate hours - and fewer peak hours - a modern TOU might not suit some users better.

SP even split WM 8.5 into an afternoon boost period.

Those who can avoid using heavy energy demand (including charging stored heat) in the say peak 4-7pm window typically - think likes of Octopus Cosy, EOn Pumped/Smart Saver, EDF Freephase type deals - others will no doubt be available.

OK general question to all MSE'rs

Is there an MSE article anywhere comparing the typical rates and timings for the new style TOU deals available ?

(you know like they do to assist on choosing fixes etc)

There will be users here on many of the new type deals - there are some threads on at least a couple - but I suspect the first thing to do is find out

your tariff

how many hours your charging your heating if not always on

and in winter - when your HIVE programmed (if time and temperature) using it for radiator heat

- and getting quotes for some of the above.

SP themselves if dont want to switch - at least until MPANs resolved - itself iirc had a 5 hr reduced rate heat pump TOU tariff at one point - off peak midday iirc - aorund 14p a while back - and 11-4pm - but the rate the other 19 hrs ??? - so may have other TOU themselves now. Not sure if that covered boilers (some specifically say their ASHP TOU will - others might allow on if ask even if dont)

Ectophile

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/82087537#Comment_82087537

That bit of T&E to the Thermaflow unit has been hacked about.

Any wiring that's exposed to touch should be both insulated and sheathed for safety. Single insulated wire is only allowed inside enclosures, conduit, or similar. But someone has chopped half the outer grey sheath from that T&E, leaving long sections of brown and blue single insulated wire exposed.

It's not immediately dangerous, but shows a lack of care and would fail an inspection (EICR).

purkles

Thanks again for the replies, very interesting and great to know the wiring is a shoddy mess Argh!

Still waiting for the logical disconnection of the 2nd MPAN.

I've now switched to Octopus in the hope I can get the cosy tariff.

Yes the 5th port is permently live - so we need to control any off peak times with the Hive.

I'm not sure what this means sorry-

"I guess the T&E to the "big switch" is for the Thermaflow? "

Previously owner would have been on the domestic and economy 2000 tariffs, but when I got the house SP would only give me a variable tariff. I'm not sure what the timings were exactly, but used to hear the timer click. SP were useless with info and offered nothing to help.

They then offered" Help to beat cancer tariff" but peak and off peak were the same amount.

I'm also looking to get rid of the Thermaflow. Due to its age, Neatheat don't offer a maintenance plan. Possibly going to look into Scottish gov grant for storage heaters and a water heater. Just fed up of it all.

Scot_39

As per my post above - the thermaflow manuals had references to a discrete charge time controller.

Are you sure the Hive controls charging and room heating and not just room heating ?

Charging - you want to align with any off peak rates like on Cosy for 8 hrs a day - (1-4pm, 10-12pm and 4-7am ?) and possibly during their normal day rate if necessary - but hopefully never the 4-7pm super peak).

Heating - you want to align to your needs - if in all day or not etc.

purkles

Hi again.

So after all that, we've had enough and getting gas 🙈😂 Should have done that ages ago.

I've now switched to Octopus cosy so will see how that goes while we wait for all the gas services.

The Hive does control both the heating and hot water. It's only set to come on for 1 1/2 hour during the overnight off-peak time. Without the Hive it would have been on and off all day whenever it dropped from 70C.

I'll ask Octopus if they can check thier part of the wiring, and SP networks to check theirs.

Hopefully the saga will end before the year is out.