Another Deprivation Of Assets question!

Altior

Yamor said:

On the specific question about the need for an MR if a year has passed before the decision is made, see Example 1 in para. 42813 here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/67bde4d589b4a58925ac6d33/dmgch42.pdf

It would be an interesting question if the decision is made within a year, but then a year has passed before the appeal is actually submitted. I'm pretty sure no MR would be needed, as it doesn't sound right to suggest the requirements could change depending on the precise date the appeal is submitted.

Thanks, yes I'd read these and alas none of the examples seem to mirror what would be most likely to happen in practice, where PPA is applicable in a current ESA claim. In example 1, the WCA never happened, so there is no appeal pending as at day 366 (as you allude to).

The actual HC judgement summary contained:

'Where a benefits claimant appeals a decision by the Secretary of State that he does not have limited capability for work, and when that decision was either the first time that issue was considered by the Secretary of State in respect of that claimant, or when it follows an earlier decision by the Secretary of State that that benefits claimant did have limited capability for work, the benefits claimant will continue to receive ESA on the strength of the evidence of his GP until such time as the First-tier Tribunal determines the appeal.”

Yamor

If PPA will be made, because the decision is made before the year is up, then no MR is needed. That is the simple straightforward case.

It is also clear that once the year is up, PPA will not be made.

Altior

Yamor said:

If PPA will be made, because the decision is made before the year is up, then no MR is needed. That is the simple straightforward case.

It is also clear that once the year is up, PPA will not be made.

You say it's clear, but all of the official documentation I have seen (and posted) states that PPA is paid pending the appeal decision. 

What I'd like to see is where it written that it ceases after 365 days, whilst the appeal decision is still pending.

I'm not stating that the position you (and poppy12345) are outlining is incorrect, but it varies from the published information specific to PPA and ESA. 

It's unlikely to be relevant anyway, but the applicable sentence is Where the WCA is the individual’s first such assessment they can appeal to HM Courts & Tribunals Service (HMCTS) and continue to be paid ESA pending the appeal being heard.

To me, continuing to be paid until being heard means exactly that. Not until it's heard or 365 days, whichever comes first. 

Altior

I will park this for the time being anyway, I have all the information I need and now it's just a waiting game. I will almost certainly be preparing for a UC application unless something unforeseen happens, regardless of whether PPA extends beyond the year or not.

Once again, many thanks for the guidance and patience   

(I will also almost certainly be back at some point in the future!)

Muttleythefrog

Altior said:

For anyone interested in the PPA chat, I found this 

122._New_Style_ESA_only_claims-Guidance_V7.0.pdf

Payment Pending Appeal Payment Pending Appeal is when a claimant is found fit for work following a WCA and appeals against the decision. They will continue to receive New Style ESA at the LCW rate if they have provided a Statement of Fitness for work declaring they are not fit for work. See New Style Employment and Support Allowance only claims: Spotlight.  

I don't know what Spotlight means !

I think Spotlight refers to documents of guidance for staff on administrating benefits. The document in question I cannot find direct link for... but it is linked in this FOI request reply.. search for "spotlight". Significantly there has to be guidance on administration where there is, for example, interaction of UC and NS ESA when being claimed together... so you'll note there are two documents you could look at there "spotlight" referenced which detail how they deal with PPA situation should NS ESA be claimed or in the other document both benefits.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/uc_and_esa_cbnew_style_esa

Yamor

That rule is explicitly stated in the document I linked to earlier at para. 42792, point 2.1.

You can also see the rule stated at para. U7007, point 2 in this document:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62bec8378fa8f519ba3f7ca4/admu7.pdf

Also, had you been correct, then it wouldn't have made sense to require an MR where the decision is only made after the year is up. The logic behind that is that payments aren't going to be paid anyway, so there is no need to remove the MR requirement. But if you were correct, then payments could be made even after the year is up.

Altior

IMPORTANT QUESTION

Back already, can't get rid of me Please let me know if you'll would prefer me to start a new thread

I ran my scenario through 2 different benefits calculators, using £15K capital and everything else the same as I have already shared. In anticipation of winding down stoozing over the next few months, and reflecting my true capital position.

Rather worryingly, they both said that I still wasn't entitled to UC  

Somewhat perversely, this appears due to my unearned income from NS ESA. 

One of the calculators shows a negative entitlement, after deducting the ESA income and implied capital yield. ie £ 400.14 - 555.49  

So the obvious question is, are the calculators correct? 

(This is what one of them actually states:)

Universal Credit

Based on the information you have given us, you aren’t entitled to any Universal Credit because your household’s income is more than your household is considered to need to live on.

Spoonie_Turtle

Hmm.  Brain is a bit foggy but you can check my maths.

Capital = deduction of £4.35 per £250
Max capital for UC eligibility = 16,000 which = 10,000 between 6k and 16k.  10k = 40x250, so maximum possible deduction for capital on UC = 40x4.35 = 174.

If 15k capital, deduction = 36x4.35 = £156.60

ESA assessment rate (before you've had your assessment) = £92.05/week
Monthly deduction = weekly x 52 ÷ 12
92.05 x 52 = 4786.60
÷ 12 = £398.88

UC single person element = £400.14

So whilst awaiting your WCA, yeah there'd be barely any UC even if you had savings below 6k.  Anything above 6k → nil entitlement.

However if your WCA results in LCWRA, UC with LCWRA currently - before they cut the health element - is about £217 more than ESA with the support group component.  So even with maximum capital deduction, there is still some UC left payable.

I believe you can have a UC claim open with nil entitlement for up to 6 months.  It's not like being automatically ineligible the way having over the savings threshold is.  But I don't know how the change with the lower LCWRA element will be implemented and whether waiting periods apply or would apply to you … basically I don't know whether you would need to apply more than 3 months before the April change, or just need to apply sometime before.  I can't see me having the brainpower to read up and work that out, hopefully others more knowledgeable are better placed to advise.

Muttleythefrog

As above.. yes the calculators sound correct... NS ESA deducted as an unearned income monthly calculated rate from UC award.. so notable reductions in UC award due to savings over lower threshold then likely zero payment. A lot of variables you're playing with and as Spoonie points to also some complex potential situations like timing of a UC claim and benefit rule changes. And beyond that further benefit rule changes including the intended amalgamation of NS ESA and NS JSA into a single time limited benefit which is probably some way off (if ever) but could become relevant here. Often the advice is for people in an opposite sort of situation... where we advise retaining NS ESA with their UC claim as it can convey some advantages such as if they came into inheritance and lost means tested entitlement.

Altior

Thanks Spoonie_Turtle and Muttleythefrog

Yes I played around with the capital and basically the calculators don't say I'd qualify until it went below £6K.

Of course at this point I'm not bothered about actually receiving any UC, just qualifying to be on UC if that makes sense. The calculators aren't sophisticated to work that out, nor should they be I guess.

Even when I try to do the 'right' thing, and simplify my affairs, it appears problematic!

I'm not going to be able to put in an UC application three months before the new tax year now. But yes, the open questions remain, when is the WCA, what will be the outcome, do I need to try and apply for UC before the new tax year. And then the PPA thing if I am deemed FfW.

At least from what both of you are stating, I can qualify for UC even if the award is nil. So I just need to make sure it's after at least 6 months of CB ESA. So my ESA runs out before the £0.00 UC deadline.