Another Deprivation Of Assets question!

Altior

At around 3am this morning (lol), I did find some data that might change everything. I was trying to find out typically how many applicants are found 'fit to work' after their ESA WCA, as I was never told that was a possibility (until I was informed here).

I spoke to my work coach only once and she told me back then that about 1 in 5 of ESA applicants were put in the support group.

Well, this is completely incorrect isn't it. I was digesting this report 'ESA: Work Capability Assessments, Mandatory Reconsiderations and Appeals'. At best, she has inversed it (accidentally I assume). So turns out nearly 70% are put in the support group and about 20-25% are found fit to work. The remainder (5-10%) are placed in the WRAG.

I also found that around two thirds of appeals are won. If I end up needing to appeal, I won't have a MR, due to a high court judgement in 2020.

The outcome is obviously not random. But I was given the impression it was a pretty big hurdle to get placed in the support group. The stats don't back that up. I imagine that a certain portion of the 20-25% found fit to work were effectively winging it, and didn't have much in the way of evidence and/or didn't populate the form or interview too well.

Altior

huckster said:

I don't think anyone with such a complicated set of financial accounts should be looking to claim means tested benefits. So it is good that debts are being paid and many accounts closed.

Anyone claiming UC will be subject to review processes at the beginning of claims and then at any points while the claim is running. So being in a position to clearly evidence money, savings and investments at any time of request is very important.

Tell me about it!

Last year was just a crazy year, the operation and resulting complications were huge (like even trying to work out how I can collect my post from the front door), then I had ran out of all paid leave and still physically couldn't sit at my desk at home to work. Then when I did eventually get back to working, they did a u turn on me and demanded I started going to the office again. I didn't actually believe they would follow through on the threat, since I am ill but was still doing a good job. 

Through this upheaval anyway and eventually being effectively forced to leave, the benefit system was a total afterthought. I was very much expecting to support myself via my own resources, up to pension access date. Given this, stoozing was delivering income (in accounting terms), and ending it for no reason never crossed my mind. 

 As is evident, I knew very little about the benefit system, and only a little more now! If I had planned it I could have put things in order, but I am where I am. To be honest I have no shame in applying, I am sure it reads a little jarring to onlookers that I am not on bread and water quite yet, but with some reasonable adjustments I am close to legitimately qualifying for UC. I think it would be daft not to plan for it. And in the short term I won't get anything extra, my understanding is I won't get any UC due to my current ESA. If I successfully applied for UC, I still wouldn't get any material payments when my ESA ended, due to my capital. Unless I am placed in the support group. 

Muttleythefrog

Altior said:

At around 3am this morning (lol), I did find some data that might change everything. I was trying to find out typically how many applicants are found 'fit to work' after their ESA WCA, as I was never told that was a possibility (until I was informed here).

I spoke to my work coach only once and she told me back then that about 1 in 5 of ESA applicants were put in the support group.

Well, this is completely incorrect isn't it. I was digesting this report 'ESA: Work Capability Assessments, Mandatory Reconsiderations and Appeals'. At best, she has inversed it (accidentally I assume). So turns out nearly 70% are put in the support group and about 20-25% are found fit to work. The remainder (5-10%) are placed in the WRAG.

I also found that around two thirds of appeals are won. If I end up needing to appeal, I won't have a MR, due to a high court judgement in 2020.

The outcome is obviously not random. But I was given the impression it was a pretty big hurdle to get placed in the support group. The stats don't back that up. I imagine that a certain portion of the 20-25% found fit to work were effectively winging it, and didn't have much in the way of evidence and/or didn't populate the form or interview too well.

Forget high court judgements.... you'd need to put in an MR before appeal and it would make no sense not to given you could be successful with it and it can act as your opportunity to effectively create your appeal submission material. Appeals are taking significant time to be heard. MRs typically fail but there has been improvement in recent times. Anyway this is all speculative... and unfortunately your mind is running away with you due to all the analysis and decisions you are not taking. Maybe a  life coach rather than work coach could be useful

Analysing the stats of awards is of limited help... it's unfortunate it is taking time to assess you. Work coaches and general UC staff are often clueless and happy to give false information. Historically those getting awards of Support group were much lower... and government past and present have been alarmed by the increasing percentage getting classified as most disabled.. there was expectation a small percentage would qualify and far more go in WRAG. Reality is claimants get better at claiming... and there probably are other factors at play. One of those factors could well be that given income related ESA is no longer able to be applied for it is largely people who have recently worked who are applying and they may be better placed to do so in several respects.

Altior

Muttleythefrog said:

Altior said:

At around 3am this morning (lol), I did find some data that might change everything. I was trying to find out typically how many applicants are found 'fit to work' after their ESA WCA, as I was never told that was a possibility (until I was informed here).

I spoke to my work coach only once and she told me back then that about 1 in 5 of ESA applicants were put in the support group.

Well, this is completely incorrect isn't it. I was digesting this report 'ESA: Work Capability Assessments, Mandatory Reconsiderations and Appeals'. At best, she has inversed it (accidentally I assume). So turns out nearly 70% are put in the support group and about 20-25% are found fit to work. The remainder (5-10%) are placed in the WRAG.

I also found that around two thirds of appeals are won. If I end up needing to appeal, I won't have a MR, due to a high court judgement in 2020.

The outcome is obviously not random. But I was given the impression it was a pretty big hurdle to get placed in the support group. The stats don't back that up. I imagine that a certain portion of the 20-25% found fit to work were effectively winging it, and didn't have much in the way of evidence and/or didn't populate the form or interview too well.

Forget high court judgements.... you'd need to put in an MR before appeal and it would make no sense not to given you could be successful with it and it can act as your opportunity to effectively create your appeal submission material. Appeals are taking significant time to be heard. MRs typically fail but there has been improvement in recent times. Anyway this is all speculative... and unfortunately your mind is running away with you due to all the analysis and decisions you are not taking. Maybe a  life coach rather than work coach could be useful

Analysing the stats of awards is of limited help... it's unfortunate it is taking time to assess you. Work coaches and general UC staff are often clueless and happy to give false information. Historically those getting awards of Support group were much lower... and government past and present have been alarmed by the increasing percentage getting classified as most disabled.. there was expectation a small percentage would qualify and far more go in WRAG. Reality is claimants get better at claiming... and there probably are other factors at play. One of those factors could well be that given income related ESA is no longer able to be applied for it is largely people who have recently worked who are applying and they may be better placed to do so in several respects.

Thanks!

The MR thing seemed rather explicit ie you couldn't MR if you wanted to:

Note: As a result of a High Court decision in July 2020, the Mandatory Reconsideration stage has been discontinued for any claimant who, having been found Fit for Work (FfW) following a WCA would, if they appealed, be paid ESA pending the outcome of that appeal. This is known as Payment Pending Appeal (PPA). Not all claimants qualify, and it applies only to Fit for Work disallowance decisions, not decisions such as disallowance due to Failure to Return a Questionnaire or Failure to Attend a WCA.

With regard to interpreting data, luckily it's something that is in my arc. The distribution is actually surprisingly consistent. From 2014 to 2024 anyway. For example it was 28/10/62 in 2014 and 23/8/69 in 2024 (to September). That is ftw/wrag/sg.

It's definitely not random and I am not interpreting that as my true probability. I just wanted to get an idea of the proportion of people signed off by a medic were deemed fit to work by DWP. As it's something I had not factored in. 

Altior

I think that is a gamechanger to be honest, as appeals can take a year or more I am reading. So there is a safety net if the initial conclusion after the WCA was a bizarre one (FtW). If WRAG I believe I would stay on UC, and if the support group I'd say on UC. 

' You can appeal without a mandatory reconsideration if:

• it's the first time the DWP has decided you don't have 'limited capability for work'

• you didn't score enough points on your Work Capability Assessment

If you're not sure if you need to ask for a mandatory reconsideration, check your decision letter.

If it’s the first time the DWP decided you don’t have limited capability for work - you might be entitled to get ESA while you’re waiting for a decision on your appeal. You can find out how to appeal to an independent tribunal. '  

If you think your ESA decision is wrong - mandatory reconsideration - Citizens Advice

Altior

Okay, I am satisfied that this is the current process. From the live gov uk webpage:

An assessment can have 3 possible outcomes:

1. Individuals can be found not to have Limited Capability for Work (LCW) – thereby they are ‘Fit for Work’ (FfW)

Their ESA claim closes and, depending on their circumstances, they can make a claim for New Style Jobseeker’s Allowance (NSJSA) and/or UC. At the same time they can dispute their ESA decision. Where the WCA is the individual’s first such assessment they can appeal to HM Courts & Tribunals Service (HMCTS) and continue to be paid ESA pending the appeal being heard.

I will apply for UC before April. Of course I may have the WCA outcome in the meantime. But it doesn't really change anything. I suppose the only question for the experts is what happens to a UC claim if you are initially found to be FtW via the ESA WCA, but put on PPA.

Muttleythefrog

Altior said:

Muttleythefrog said:

Altior said:

At around 3am this morning (lol), I did find some data that might change everything. I was trying to find out typically how many applicants are found 'fit to work' after their ESA WCA, as I was never told that was a possibility (until I was informed here).

I spoke to my work coach only once and she told me back then that about 1 in 5 of ESA applicants were put in the support group.

Well, this is completely incorrect isn't it. I was digesting this report 'ESA: Work Capability Assessments, Mandatory Reconsiderations and Appeals'. At best, she has inversed it (accidentally I assume). So turns out nearly 70% are put in the support group and about 20-25% are found fit to work. The remainder (5-10%) are placed in the WRAG.

I also found that around two thirds of appeals are won. If I end up needing to appeal, I won't have a MR, due to a high court judgement in 2020.

The outcome is obviously not random. But I was given the impression it was a pretty big hurdle to get placed in the support group. The stats don't back that up. I imagine that a certain portion of the 20-25% found fit to work were effectively winging it, and didn't have much in the way of evidence and/or didn't populate the form or interview too well.

Forget high court judgements.... you'd need to put in an MR before appeal and it would make no sense not to given you could be successful with it and it can act as your opportunity to effectively create your appeal submission material. Appeals are taking significant time to be heard. MRs typically fail but there has been improvement in recent times. Anyway this is all speculative... and unfortunately your mind is running away with you due to all the analysis and decisions you are not taking. Maybe a  life coach rather than work coach could be useful

Analysing the stats of awards is of limited help... it's unfortunate it is taking time to assess you. Work coaches and general UC staff are often clueless and happy to give false information. Historically those getting awards of Support group were much lower... and government past and present have been alarmed by the increasing percentage getting classified as most disabled.. there was expectation a small percentage would qualify and far more go in WRAG. Reality is claimants get better at claiming... and there probably are other factors at play. One of those factors could well be that given income related ESA is no longer able to be applied for it is largely people who have recently worked who are applying and they may be better placed to do so in several respects.

Thanks!

The MR thing seemed rather explicit ie you couldn't MR if you wanted to:

Note: As a result of a High Court decision in July 2020, the Mandatory Reconsideration stage has been discontinued for any claimant who, having been found Fit for Work (FfW) following a WCA would, if they appealed, be paid ESA pending the outcome of that appeal. This is known as Payment Pending Appeal (PPA). Not all claimants qualify, and it applies only to Fit for Work disallowance decisions, not decisions such as disallowance due to Failure to Return a Questionnaire or Failure to Attend a WCA.

With regard to interpreting data, luckily it's something that is in my arc. The distribution is actually surprisingly consistent. From 2014 to 2024 anyway. For example it was 28/10/62 in 2014 and 23/8/69 in 2024 (to September). That is ftw/wrag/sg.

It's definitely not random and I am not interpreting that as my true probability. I just wanted to get an idea of the proportion of people signed off by a medic were deemed fit to work by DWP. As it's something I had not factored in. 

I should have been clearer... I would assume it'll be an option (particularly given you'll likely have a resistance to a decision of WRAG).. for MR... if not then obviously not... but I would assume there would be... you would at that juncture be making an appeal one way or other.. but it may never come to that if you are awarded Support Group. The figures for ESA outcomes have a lot of factors to consider over time... for example many of the initial claimants were existing claimants of the predecessor benefit and by default therefore have already got a history of being considered unable to work.. this would history the figures for say an authentic new claimant to such a benefit. But as I say the stats are of limited use.. yes if you've a decent case then there is a decent chance you'd get Support group awarded or after appeal get it awarded. Your knowledge of your application is far more likely to shed light on that as you may have made a solid case evidenced for several Support group descriptors. 

You're overanalysing... trying to fill in unknowns. Crucially I think the unknown of the WCA outcome should be your juncture to take significant decisions in light or what that decision is. What is the status of that.... if you've returned forms I'd be inclined to email the assessment company (find out from link below who that would be) and ask when your case will be considered/what is happening with the referral to them. See if you can get any info regarding that perhaps.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/find-your-health-assessment-provider

Altior

I am typically someone who likes to be armed with all of the right and possibly useful information. And I don't like surprises. When I was able to travel for example I would memorise the route using google street view and know exactly where I was going to park in advance. Even if the journey was dozens of miles. Anyhow enough about my little oddities!

The DWP agent I spoke to on Friday said that they have received my ESA 50, and now waiting for the DWP to make a decision. I suppose I could have dug deeper into what decision that was, but didn't sound like my application had been added to Serco's pile as yet. 

You're right though in that the outcome of the WCA is critical. But given the info about PPA, the pendulum has swung significantly toward preparing for a UC claim.

With regard to the specifics of my application, it's quite hard to judge. I am a decent writer, I have multiple times been given credit for being able to adapt my writing style for the specific audience (in this case a health assessment person). I am fairly confident with working in the appropriate descriptors into my writing, and using key words without making it obvious (but easier I hope for the assessor to identify the appropriate points). If I have an interview I will be reasonably prepared and unlikely to falter under any self inflicted pressure. But it's all new to me and perhaps being confident in this setting could be a negative. I have been able to provide them with independent evidence that was gathered many months before my claim was initiated.  

Muttleythefrog

If Serco is the company.. I'd be inclined to send a quick email... NiNo is your unique identifier they will use so include that.... and ask if they're received referral for a WCA for you and if so what sort of timescale can you expect. For all their failings the assessment companies do tend to be administratively good on this level.

On your last paragraph....and with your second sentence of the first in mind... Frustratingly these assessments can be hit and miss... which is why you do ultimately see high appeal success rates (and like with PIP pressure on the DWP to cut out nonsense appeals where the claimant is clearly going to win and DWP evidence be  effectively trashed). They can be quite superficial and prone to lazy extrapolations that often will anger claimants. That said you may get an accurate one and all my WCA outcomes I could agree with. Ultimately the DWP Decision Makers almost always rely on the assessment (or paper based equivalent advice) for their decision. You are right that preparation and presentation at say an assessment can influence a HCP (Healthcare pro) assessor to perceive your problems in particular light and not always accurately. Ultimately the HCP is unlikely to be an expert regarding the underlying problems a claimant has and many claimants over several assessments can experience good bad and ugly. Key is the pressure of time on them... so they don't like to dwell... they do like to come to opinions based on often repeated and quite simplistic justifications.

Crucial at all times is to focus on the relevant descriptors that apply to you.... and many failures of applications for ESA, health element of UC or indeed PIP seem based on a failure of claimant to actually know how technically they should qualify... effectively fighting blind. 

I certainly can identify with your description in your first paragraph by the way! I have always been like that until recent times when I moved to an environment where greater freedoms I felt could be psychologically applied.. and it has meant less planning. I did so much planning (around 5 years research)  in moving to where I have done.. the other end of the country to which I have typically lived... that I still after 3 years guide local people around their own areas, describe the local history to people who are local... and see people who I know the life story of who have never met me... it's very strange. 

itsthelittlethings

So you're going to pay off all your debt and try to stash some money in a pension and apply for UC?