E7 active period differs from billing period

Swipe

gorspenyans said:

I just took a look at my meter, bit of a dry run for tonight. The meter is an Itron EM425-UK25T (Two blue buttons with an orange button between them)

I found an entry in the Command Menu for ALCS, on pressing select it said none found? is that right? With no manual to guide me everything is guess work.

I did find a display giving "Active Tariff Price" this was displaying my Peak tariff at around 1pm (as expected) Is this what I am looking for? 

I can also see a segment in the display with 3 bars in a configuration I think is showing open circuit  _/_ . the bars have AUX above them. If my guess is right the bars should change to closed _-_ when the off peak is active. Am I right in expecting the tariff price at that time changing to match my off peak.

I have a voltage sensing pen that I can leave against the off peak feed, this, hopefully, will tell me when that circuit is active, I should then be able to verify the rates etc.

Sorry for the questions, all this is out of my knowledge base and I want to be sure of my facts when I next tackle Octopus.

I have exact the same meter model. You are correct regarding the 3 bar configuration. The _-_ symbol below AUX is shown when the off peak ALCS is active. So all you need to do is check during the first half hour at midnight and ensure that the active tariff price is showing the off peak rate when the ALCS is active. Once your ALCS has switched to off peak, to make things easier, you can monitor the active tarff price via the in house display device if your smart meter is outside or in an awkward location. On the Chameleon3 IHD, press OK, account information, press OK and press the right arrow two times to show active tariff price.

Scot_39

gorspenyans said:

I did find a display giving "Active Tariff Price" this was displaying my Peak tariff at around 1pm (as expected) Is this what I am looking for? 

I can also see a segment in the display with 3 bars in a configuration I think is showing open circuit  _/_ . the bars have AUX above them. If my guess is right the bars should change to closed _-_ when the off peak is active. Am I right in expecting the tariff price at that time changing to match my off peak.

Yes - the active price should change to night rate at the same time as your meter ALCS switches on the restricted circuit.

But if its out of sync it wont change to c0030 or whenever - both times plus any preset offset (mines is so near zero - I treat it as zero - others can typically be upto 15 min - but the spec allows a max of just under 30 iirc - highest I remember a user reporting recently was c12min)

It does look like your activating around 5.5 kW of load at midnight (2.75kWh in half an hour) - with some variation - that falls off a little in next few slots.

The contactor indication may change as well - with the ALCS timing - but I cannot find a detailed manual for the ltron on a quick google.  just this standard glossy data sheet - which at least has the same button config.

https://na.itron.com/documents/44647/3820410/101818SP-01+EM425-UK2+4T_EMEA_Web.pdf/749ec7c3-b9a1-abdc-cd54-450c3035a821?version=1.1&t=1711249363717

But the lcd piccy there does show 2 contactors - for the aux 5th port on the 5T (T=terminal) on top line and the main 4th port contactor I assume on 4T and 5T - on bottom lhs.  If yours is like that hopefully the aux and the load contactor will look the same during ALCS activation of the restricted feed.

My meter has ALCS - but when tried the key sequence on one suppliers web guide for boost - it didn't work.

gorspenyans

The Jury's in. At 00.04 the aux circuit closed and my E7 became active, the tariff remained at my peak rate until 00.34 when it changed to off peak. This morning my aux circuit opened at 07.04 ending my E7 period and the off peak rate continued to be charged until 07.33.
Conclusion; My peak and off peak power charges are 30 minutes out of sync to their active periods. Octopus cannot deny the fact but can I get them to correct the error?

Swipe

gorspenyans said:

The Jury's in. At 00.04 the aux circuit closed and my E7 became active, the tariff remained at my peak rate until 00.34 when it changed to off peak. This morning my aux circuit opened at 07.04 ending my E7 period and the off peak rate continued to be charged until 07.33.
Conclusion; My peak and off peak power charges are 30 minutes out of sync to their active periods. Octopus cannot deny the fact but can I get them to correct the error?

Thanks for the update. As you now have your evidence, raise an official complaint with Octopus and ask for a deadlock letter if they won't agree to address the timing mismatch and re-bill you, so you can raise a case with the energy ombudsman. Probably better to raise it via a phone call and then follow up via email with all the details, so you don't get an AI response.

lohr500

That's a good result.

I would contact Octopus again and ask to speak to someone in their meter team.

I had the same problem when I switched to UW last year in that the ALCS timing was not synchronised with the peak/off-peak switching times. After a quick call to UW, their specialist meter team were able to remotely push new configuration to the meter which set the ALCS switching to align with the peak/off-peak registers.
They did this within 24 hours and it has remained stable now for well over a year.
So it was definitely fixable for me. I have a different smart meter to yours but the principle should be the same.

If you go through your usage history from the Octopus graphs, can you work out how many units you have used in those 30 minutes and calculate what your additional cost has been based on the difference between your peak and off-peak prices? I would present that number to Octopus and ask for a refund. If they refuse, it would be worth escalating with the Ombudsman.

Out of interest were you watching the meter, or did you use your voltage pen to check when the ALCS circuit cut in? On our meter you can here the contactor in the meter click as the circuit becomes energised..

Ildhund

gorspenyans said:

At 00.04 the aux circuit closed and my E7 became active, the tariff remained at my peak rate until 00.34 when it changed to off peak. This morning my aux circuit opened at 07.04 ending my E7 period and the off peak rate continued to be charged until 07.33.

@gorspenyans This is clear evidence of the sort of configuration error we've seen so often with several different meters, suppliers and DNOs. It's also a simple error to correct if the customer manages to get the message to the right people on the supplier's metering staff. We have found that a clearly laid-out complaint explaining what is wrong and what has to happen to make it right in a succinct format ready to be forwarded to the techs is the best way forward. In your case, something like this:

• Octopus account no:
• MPAN: 10nnnnnnnnnnn (as given on a recent bill)*
• MSN: nnnnnnnn  (read off the meter, compare with recent bill)
• Meter: Itron EM425-UK25T
• Tariff: Economy 7 (here give the full name of the tariff as given on a recent bill, say)
• Nominal tariff switching times: offpeak 00:30 - 07:30 GMT (properly configured in the tariff switching table confirmed by observation)
• Randomized offset: ~ 240s by observation (the tech can retrieve this to check)
• Nominal ALCS calendar settings: Closed all days 00:00 - 07:00 GMT (confirmed by observation)
• Solution: ECAUL request to set the ALCS to Closed all days 00:30 - 07:30 GMT

*  I don't know whether it would help to include a screenshot of the actual 'S' panel from a recent bill which gives further details of the supply's recorded details: Profile Class, Meter Timeswitch Class (MTC) or Standard Settlement Configuration (SSC) and Line Loss Factor Class (LLFC). This is my new one (East Midlands E7), showing the SSC instead of the MTC as previously:


[ nnnn is 'personally identifiable information, which is why it's obscured here. Leave it in for the complaint]

Follow this with - perhaps - a demand for compensation for offpeak electricity charged at peak rate (less, of course, peak energy at the other end charged at the offpeak rate). You'd have to estimate this by reference to average consumption in the half-hours preceding and following each day's offpeak period - a really tedious exercise which may not be worth the effort. It may be better just to name a reasonable lump sum you reckon might cover it, plus a bit for your trouble.

And just because I've got it handy, here's a jolly graphic illustrating why half-hourly usage data are no help when unravelling apparent billing differences - it is Christmas, after all! The example is for a properly-configured meter with a randomized offset of 15 minutes:



Your case is more egregious, of course, because of the whole half-hour difference.

gorspenyans

Thank you so much for everybody's help here. Your help has given me the tools to tackle Octopus with confidence. I will update the thread as my complaint progresses.

Scot_39

gorspenyans said:

The Jury's in. At 00.04 the aux circuit closed and my E7 became active, the tariff remained at my peak rate until 00.34 when it changed to off peak. This morning my aux circuit opened at 07.04 ending my E7 period and the off peak rate continued to be charged until 07.33.
Conclusion; My peak and off peak power charges are 30 minutes out of sync to their active periods. Octopus cannot deny the fact but can I get them to correct the error?

Just be careful with that wording.

E7 tariff data is not controlling your night circuits - smart meter alcs calander settings are.

There now clearly mismatched by 1/2 hour  - and need to be reset one or both as a matching pair.

[Your E7 as a tariff is always active - its actively charging peak day rate and off peak night rate 24/7.  And tthat works for homes with or without restricted circuits - with or without modern digital / smart meter timing masters (back to mechanical clocks and rts systems)]


Ps just out of interest - does your ihd have a countdown to next tariff rate feature - if so am I right in assuming it will probably be working relative to the tariff and not the alcs now mismatched - i.e. counting down to 0034  // 0734.

Swipe

Scot_39 said:

gorspenyans said:

The Jury's in. At 00.04 the aux circuit closed and my E7 became active, the tariff remained at my peak rate until 00.34 when it changed to off peak. This morning my aux circuit opened at 07.04 ending my E7 period and the off peak rate continued to be charged until 07.33.
Conclusion; My peak and off peak power charges are 30 minutes out of sync to their active periods. Octopus cannot deny the fact but can I get them to correct the error?

Ps just out of interest - does your ihd have a countdown to next tariff rate feature - if so am I right in assuming it will probably be working relative to the tariff and not the alcs now mismatched - i.e. counting down to 0034  // 0734.

I can confirm from when my tariff times temporaily went out of sync with my ALCS, that the countdown is related to the tariff schedule and not the ALCS

Rosie1001

This sort of happens to me by 9 mins every time it changes as per the half hour pricing 

my 3.09 pm afternoon boost ends at 4.09 pm but my pricing changes at 4pm 

they told me it can happen when the acls clicks on / off 

you can see on the chart I am paying for 9 mins at 4 pm peak instead of off peak 

same happens for my night  switch over