Is the London Bullion Market going to implode

PixelPound

wmb194 said:

PixelPound said:

plumb1_2 said:

Just been reading about investing in silver , surprised that there’s a 300 million oz shortage of physical silver.
Al these paper notes issued are not worth anything, as there’s nowt in the vaults.
The bullion banks and the boe, are pushing for digital I’d, and digital money. To cover up this price fixing scam.

What happens if there is a repeat of 1933. Roosevelt brought in an act that made private ownership of gold illegal requiring everyone to sell their gold to the government at a fixed price due to the gold shortage?
Maybe you think paper notes or gold ETF is not worth anything, but if you think buying bullion is the only way, that's no guarantee. 

Back then they were still on a version of the gold standard so it mattered. It no longer does.

I am not a believer in the conspiracy that gold vaults are empty, but if someone was stating that to say buying bullion is the only safe way to store wealth, then they could be wrong.
One way to wipe out massive government deficit is to reprice gold reserves to current levels. Compulsory purchase of everyone's gold first would maximise this. 
I am not saying this will happen, don't think it will, but if you wanted to go down that rabbit hole. 

wmb194

PixelPound said:

wmb194 said:

PixelPound said:

plumb1_2 said:

Just been reading about investing in silver , surprised that there’s a 300 million oz shortage of physical silver.
Al these paper notes issued are not worth anything, as there’s nowt in the vaults.
The bullion banks and the boe, are pushing for digital I’d, and digital money. To cover up this price fixing scam.

What happens if there is a repeat of 1933. Roosevelt brought in an act that made private ownership of gold illegal requiring everyone to sell their gold to the government at a fixed price due to the gold shortage?
Maybe you think paper notes or gold ETF is not worth anything, but if you think buying bullion is the only way, that's no guarantee. 

Back then they were still on a version of the gold standard so it mattered. It no longer does.

I am not a believer in the conspiracy that gold vaults are empty, but if someone was stating that to say buying bullion is the only safe way to store wealth, then they could be wrong.
One way to wipe out massive government deficit is to reprice gold reserves to current levels. Compulsory purchase of everyone's gold first would maximise this. 
I am not saying this will happen, don't think it will, but if you wanted to go down that rabbit hole. 

But it wouldn’t make any sense to reprice gold reserves when you’re not on a gold standard and there’s no chance that we’ll ever go back to it. You might as well talk about general expropriation of assets and debt jubilees if you think the expropriation of gold is a possibility and then we’ll really be getting into a nutty conversation.

flaneurs_lobster

wmb194 said:

 if you think the expropriation of gold is a possibility and then we’ll really be getting into a nutty conversation.

There are threads on here discussing cryptocurrency, think we're already at nutty.

ColdIron

[Deleted User] said:

ColdIron said:

Yes it's happened, it's real and will expand

GOV.UK Verify was introduced as a single login to replace all other government systems (basically Government Gateway)

It no longer exists, GOV.UK One Login has replaced it. You can use it to change your state pension payment frequency, Apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate and Submit a pleasure craft voyage plan to the coastguard amongst other things

Next to come will be the GOV.UK Wallet and eventually I suppose it will include all the Government Gateway services

With “digital ID” what we are talking about is what was announced in September. I.e every citizen of the UK would have an app on their phone which can be loaded, checked and confirmed when someone takes up employment. This is what I am saying I don’t think will actually come to fruition. For a start even the government admit it will be set up just about before 2029, the department in charge of it has not even got their team in order, nobody wants the brief. Given the tight deadline and likelihood that the administration will change, I say again, I don’t think it will happen.

Well it's already happened if you want to register as a director at Companies House

I'm retired and unlikely to become a company director so I've not used it myself, but I imagine that when registering you will be redirected to GOV.UK One Login to obtain the required unique personal code, maybe a bit like using Open Banking and an intermediary (TrueLayer, Plaid etc) only that intermediary will be GOV.UK

I very much doubt you have to hand over your phone for it to be 'loaded, checked and confirmed'. Who would you give it to when registering from your directors chair at your office? Ditto when taking up employment, would they wait until your first day at the building site, supermarket or Amazon customer fulfilment warehouse? You would just need a 'unique personal code' as above as part of the application process

I don't even think the GOV.UK One Login app will be required, it works just fine on my laptop. Perhaps you would need access to a phone to scan certain documents

Most people will need access to a phone to create the GOV.UK One Login account itself as it needs a selfie, passport scan and reads your passport's biometric chip but I think that's the extent of it

As I say it's up and running. Quite a feat for a department that has not even got their team in order. It will just be expanded to cover other services

The government have also started, that if you don’t want the app, alternatives will be available, although this has not been decided fully yet what form it will take.

I believe this is in relation to the creation of the GOV.UK One Login account itself. There are some other (already defined) options. The big problem that I can see is that you need the forms of ID (passport, driving licence etc) that you would use to create the account anyway, it's a bit chicken and egg in that respect
https://www.gov.uk/using-your-gov-uk-one-login/proving-your-identity

Edit: We've come quite some way from the bullion markets imploding

flaneurs_lobster

There's a list of services that CAN be accessed using the GOV.UK One Login here. 

https://home.account.gov.uk/services-using-one-login

No doubt there is a subset, like that for Companies House described by @ColdIron, where the use of this Login is mandatory, as the mechanism for proving the identity of the user. Others can be accessed in other ways eg quoting references from Vehicle Tax reminder letters when accessing Driver & Vehicle services.

ColdIron

Yes. GOV.UK One Login has already replaced GOV.UK Verify (a terrible 'unifying' system) and all the services it used to give access to. In the future I imagine it will be embedded in non-government services such as applying for a bank account

masonic

ColdIron said:

...I imagine that when registering you will be redirected to GOV.UK One Login to obtain the required unique personal code, maybe a bit like using Open Banking and an intermediary (TrueLayer, Plaid etc) only that intermediary will be GOV.UK

Good analogy. Essentially you are granting access to your digital record to the entity you need to prove something to. No doubt like Open Banking the level of access can be restricted from simply 'is the subject over 18' yes/no, 'are they eligible and registered to vote', up to providing access to your photo and/or biometrics for law enforcement and customs purposes. Rather than doing this by handing over a physical document with all of this information, access can be granted to just what is needed for the purpose. All done via the exchange of codes that are specific to the entity requesting them and cannot be reused in identity fraud.

Another similar system that's already in use is the electronic Lasting Power of Attorney system (which also uses GOV.UK One Login). This also provides a hint as to the fallback mechanism for those who can't use a mobile app - a code can be pre-generated and shared with an organisation in person or over the telephone.

For most, a mobile app will be the preferred option, where they'd be able to generate a QR code that the organisation can scan to gain access, rather like one would when going through an airport check-in or using a service like Royal Mail 'click and drop'.

[Deleted User]

masonic said:

[Deleted User] said:

masonic said:

[Deleted User] said:

I’d be very surprised if digital ID even happens. If anything I’d imagine it would push the price up, with people wanting more privacy and trading in cash or metals only.

It already has happened. Passports have been electronic (with a physical counterpart) since 1988. Ten years later a digital photograph and signature were added, and biometrics from 2006. Meanwhile the first centralised driving licence database was introduced in the 1970s with the paper counterpart being abolished in 2015. Over 90% of the UK adult population are opted in to one or both digital ID systems. It is just that the subject of the database doesn't yet have electronic access to their own data in order to prove their identity using electronic means. Credit reference agencies allow others to perform digital checks, but if those fail, database subjects must fall back on sharing original/certified paper or plastic documents (which can then be cross referenced with the digital ID record) - a rather inconvenient and insecure process.

The number who have opted out of the passport, driving licence, and credit account systems must be a tiny minority, and not all of them will be doing so to stay under the radar. So it seems unlikely the hold-outs will cause any sort of global impact on precious metal prices.

You are being slightly disingenuous here. We are discussing recently enacted legislation in regards to “digital ID” as announced by the UK government in September 2025, not existing systems. 

I’m not being disingenuous, I’m putting the topic in context and highlighting that the September 2025 proposals don't create a new surveillance state or gather any additional information for the vast majority. They simply create a framework for some of the data that the government and credit agencies have held on us for decades. If the existence of a digital ID were going to drive people toward gold and silver, that 'rush' should have happened when the DVLA digitised or when passports became biometric. The new legislation is largely about creation of a user interface - moving that existing data from a paper booklet or plastic card in your wallet to a website or app on your phone. The rest of the infrastructure already exists.

If someone hasn't felt the need to exit the banking system while their entire financial history and biometric profile were already stored digitally, it’s hard to see why giving them a level of access to that data themselves would suddenly trigger a collapse in confidence in banking that would be sufficient to move the price of gold or silver.

The historical context is also important to understand for those doubting the new measures will ever happen. The initial legislation on establishing the digital verification services trust framework was passed in June 2025, 3 months before the September announcement. This will be a decentralised system with GOV.UK One Login as its foundation. The 2022 Voter ID legislation was the "proof of concept" that the public would comply with mandatory ID requirements if framed as a security measure. The 2025 legislation is just the next step and formalisation of a process that has been running as a pilot since 2021. There has been an ever growing mandate from the public for successive governments to ensure that only those legally entitled can be here, and access work and state services, so the new legislation will widen the scope from voter fraud to the more general protection of the taxpayer.

I am afraid I must again state to you, what we are discussing is the introduction of digital ID, as announced in September. Not any other existing systems. I will also re-add a line from my last post which you appear to have not quoted. "I understand these systems may eventually be part of it." So I am afraid I am aware of most of the info in your post already. As I have already mentioned, I was part of the initial trial managed by Barclays and the Post office, way before any of the current system was planned.

If there was to be a rush due to the introduction of digital ID, it will happen when it's introduced. All of the systems and legislation do not enter the mind of the average voter. Only when it is in front of them, will it cause "the rush", which I don't believe it will. 

I have linked to an archive of Digital ID fiasco so far. 

https://order-order.com/tag/digital-id/

[Deleted User]

ColdIron said:

[Deleted User] said:

ColdIron said:

Yes it's happened, it's real and will expand

GOV.UK Verify was introduced as a single login to replace all other government systems (basically Government Gateway)

It no longer exists, GOV.UK One Login has replaced it. You can use it to change your state pension payment frequency, Apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate and Submit a pleasure craft voyage plan to the coastguard amongst other things

Next to come will be the GOV.UK Wallet and eventually I suppose it will include all the Government Gateway services

With “digital ID” what we are talking about is what was announced in September. I.e every citizen of the UK would have an app on their phone which can be loaded, checked and confirmed when someone takes up employment. This is what I am saying I don’t think will actually come to fruition. For a start even the government admit it will be set up just about before 2029, the department in charge of it has not even got their team in order, nobody wants the brief. Given the tight deadline and likelihood that the administration will change, I say again, I don’t think it will happen.

Well it's already happened if you want to register as a director at Companies House

I'm retired and unlikely to become a company director so I've not used it myself, but I imagine that when registering you will be redirected to GOV.UK One Login to obtain the required unique personal code, maybe a bit like using Open Banking and an intermediary (TrueLayer, Plaid etc) only that intermediary will be GOV.UK

I very much doubt you have to hand over your phone for it to be 'loaded, checked and confirmed'. Who would you give it to when registering from your directors chair at your office? Ditto when taking up employment, would they wait until your first day at the building site, supermarket or Amazon customer fulfilment warehouse? You would just need a 'unique personal code' as above as part of the application process

I don't even think the GOV.UK One Login app will be required, it works just fine on my laptop. Perhaps you would need access to a phone to scan certain documents

Most people will need access to a phone to create the GOV.UK One Login account itself as it needs a selfie, passport scan and reads your passport's biometric chip but I think that's the extent of it

As I say it's up and running. Quite a feat for a department that has not even got their team in order. It will just be expanded to cover other services

The government have also started, that if you don’t want the app, alternatives will be available, although this has not been decided fully yet what form it will take.

I believe this is in relation to the creation of the GOV.UK One Login account itself. There are some other (already defined) options. The big problem that I can see is that you need the forms of ID (passport, driving licence etc) that you would use to create the account anyway, it's a bit chicken and egg in that respect
https://www.gov.uk/using-your-gov-uk-one-login/proving-your-identity

Edit: We've come quite some way from the bullion markets imploding

It has not happened, they have not even completed the consultations on it as far as I am aware in terms of the practicalities. People are getting confused with the back end system, and what will actually be the "digital ID" that is stored on a person's phone. 

The ID will be stored on your phone, so I would imagine you would need to hand over the phone, or as with EU nationals with settled status currently, a link would be generated for an employee/link from the app. If you don't have a smartphone, the gov will provide another way, although it had not been decided yet what that will be. As I stated in my first post on this thread, I understand these systems are part of the ID, but we don't have the digital ID yet. When we do, that is when a rush would occur if it was going to happen. 

masonic

[Deleted User] said:

masonic said:

[Deleted User] said:

masonic said:

[Deleted User] said:

I’d be very surprised if digital ID even happens. If anything I’d imagine it would push the price up, with people wanting more privacy and trading in cash or metals only.

It already has happened. Passports have been electronic (with a physical counterpart) since 1988. Ten years later a digital photograph and signature were added, and biometrics from 2006. Meanwhile the first centralised driving licence database was introduced in the 1970s with the paper counterpart being abolished in 2015. Over 90% of the UK adult population are opted in to one or both digital ID systems. It is just that the subject of the database doesn't yet have electronic access to their own data in order to prove their identity using electronic means. Credit reference agencies allow others to perform digital checks, but if those fail, database subjects must fall back on sharing original/certified paper or plastic documents (which can then be cross referenced with the digital ID record) - a rather inconvenient and insecure process.

The number who have opted out of the passport, driving licence, and credit account systems must be a tiny minority, and not all of them will be doing so to stay under the radar. So it seems unlikely the hold-outs will cause any sort of global impact on precious metal prices.

You are being slightly disingenuous here. We are discussing recently enacted legislation in regards to “digital ID” as announced by the UK government in September 2025, not existing systems. 

I’m not being disingenuous, I’m putting the topic in context and highlighting that the September 2025 proposals don't create a new surveillance state or gather any additional information for the vast majority. They simply create a framework for some of the data that the government and credit agencies have held on us for decades. If the existence of a digital ID were going to drive people toward gold and silver, that 'rush' should have happened when the DVLA digitised or when passports became biometric. The new legislation is largely about creation of a user interface - moving that existing data from a paper booklet or plastic card in your wallet to a website or app on your phone. The rest of the infrastructure already exists.

If someone hasn't felt the need to exit the banking system while their entire financial history and biometric profile were already stored digitally, it’s hard to see why giving them a level of access to that data themselves would suddenly trigger a collapse in confidence in banking that would be sufficient to move the price of gold or silver.

The historical context is also important to understand for those doubting the new measures will ever happen. The initial legislation on establishing the digital verification services trust framework was passed in June 2025, 3 months before the September announcement. This will be a decentralised system with GOV.UK One Login as its foundation. The 2022 Voter ID legislation was the "proof of concept" that the public would comply with mandatory ID requirements if framed as a security measure. The 2025 legislation is just the next step and formalisation of a process that has been running as a pilot since 2021. There has been an ever growing mandate from the public for successive governments to ensure that only those legally entitled can be here, and access work and state services, so the new legislation will widen the scope from voter fraud to the more general protection of the taxpayer.

I am afraid I must again state to you, what we are discussing is the introduction of digital ID, as announced in September. Not any other existing systems. I will also re-add a line from my last post which you appear to have not quoted. "I understand these systems may eventually be part of it." So I am afraid I am aware of most of the info in your post already. As I have already mentioned, I was part of the initial trial managed by Barclays and the Post office, way before any of the current system was planned.

If there was to be a rush due to the introduction of digital ID, it will happen when it's introduced. All of the systems and legislation do not enter the mind of the average voter. Only when it is in front of them, will it cause "the rush", which I don't believe it will. 

I have linked to an archive of Digital ID fiasco so far. 

https://order-order.com/tag/digital-id/

It’s interesting that you were part of those early market-led trials, as it gives you a first hand knowledge on how long we've been iterating on this. However, that’s exactly why I've focused on the more recently developed state-led systems. To suggest that these databases might eventually be part of the 2025 system is putting the cart before the horse. Those systems aren't just potential additions - they are the finished foundation upon which the 2025 mandate is built. The Data (Use and Access) Act 2025 is already law, and as of 1st December, the statutory Trust Framework is officially in force. The announcement was only made once the legislative and technical plumbing was already in place. From here it is just a bit of wiring and creation of a user interface.
You mention that the details don’t "enter the mind" of the average voter, but I would argue that is exactly why a rush to metals is so unlikely. Most voters don't realise they have already transitioned because the change was incremental. When 33 million people use the NHS App, or millions more use GOV.UK One Login to manage their taxes, they are already active subjects of a digital identity system. The 2025 announcement isn't a shock introduction of a new concept - it is simply the moment the government plugs in that existing plumbing to a mandatory requirement for employment. Like those earlier systems, it won't feel like a revolution to the average voter when they provide a digital code to an employer instead of handing over a physical passport to be photocopied and stored.

The reason there won't be a rush is that people don't abandon a system they are already comfortably using just because its legal framework is formalised. If a voter hasn't fled to precious metals despite their biometrics and financial history being digitised for over a decade, it's hard to see why a shift in the method of verification would trigger such a radical move. If they haven't realised by now, will they ever?

As for the 'fiasco' element, I agree that government IT projects are often bureaucratic messes. But this tends to lead to a broken website and public frustration for a period of time, not a systemic collapse of confidence in the currency, or a surge in the price of silver.