Intelligent Octopus Go limiting cheap charging.

MeteredOut

QrizB said:

MeteredOut said:

Octopus have stated measurement period for 6 hours is midday - midday.

If they've said that, there's two possibilities:

- They've given it less thought than I gave it when writing my reply; or

- They've worked it all out and just haven't told us the details yet.

Take your pick.

Given the way the announcement was made (eg, they were not aware that at least one charger throttled power levels, and still don't have an answer for people who charge their car from their battery or solar other than "don't do it during a smart charge slot"), I'm going with the former.

born_again

Interesting video from Octopus CEO on the changes.

https://youtu.be/rnhH5PCRRAc?si=Ib2Op6Xqm46iDjL0

born_again

pensionpawn said:

These are valid points, hence my previous comment about not making a move until the initial commercial launch premium prices have calmed down due to competition and demand. I fully appreciate the cost implications having already pointed out to my brother, who also bought his first EV on retirement, that on his massively reduced commute it will take him a year or two to recover the cost of the charger unit, let alone the EV itself price premium.
It's not a done deal at this moment in time!

Took me 9 months to cover the £1K the charger cost compared to what I spent on electric to petrol on the old HEV. Still cover the same miles.

People really need to stop this "Well it will take so long to cover cost" when you buy a new item, kitchen etc. Do you think how long will that take to cover what it cost? 

MattMattMattUK

born_again said:

pensionpawn said:

These are valid points, hence my previous comment about not making a move until the initial commercial launch premium prices have calmed down due to competition and demand. I fully appreciate the cost implications having already pointed out to my brother, who also bought his first EV on retirement, that on his massively reduced commute it will take him a year or two to recover the cost of the charger unit, let alone the EV itself price premium.
It's not a done deal at this moment in time!

Took me 9 months to cover the £1K the charger cost compared to what I spent on electric to petrol on the old HEV. Still cover the same miles.

People really need to stop this "Well it will take so long to cover cost" when you buy a new item, kitchen etc. Do you think how long will that take to cover what it cost? 

Most people are incredibly bad at estimating TCO vs immediate outlay and savings over time. There have been many on here who now think that because of the 3p per mile EV charge (if it does ever come in) EVs are much more expensive to operate than ICE vehicles because it is a cost that ICE vehicles do not have, even though the cost per mile of an EV will still be less than a quarter of the cost per mile for an ICE vehicle. 

QrizB

born_again said:

People really need to stop this "Well it will take so long to cover cost" when you buy a new item, kitchen etc. Do you think how long will that take to cover what it cost? 

That's a nonsense argument in this context.

No-one is buyng an EV charger because it's an attractive addition to their wall and will provide intangible-but-real benefits to their quality of life. They'e buying it to charge their EV more conveniently and at a lower cost than public charging.

If you're buying something to save money, the cost of the thing and the payback period is very much of prime importance.

MWT

QrizB said:

MeteredOut said:

Octopus have stated measurement period for 6 hours is midday - midday.

If they've said that, there's two possibilities:

- They've given it less thought than I gave it when writing my reply; or

- They've worked it all out and just haven't told us the details yet.

Take your pick.

Midday - midday is not in doubt, Phil Steele (Octopus) has confirmed it multiple times. 

They have not released the details yet on 'how' but it is trivial to flip the rate for an 'excess' HH period to peak and they rebate based metered use in the HH minus the IOG completed dispatch for that period. 

Could alternatively use data from the EVSE or EV which would in most cases deliver an even lower cost.

Solar is not an issue at that time of day, so that just leaves people who allow their home batteries to discharge in that period which is also likely to be a very low number, but in that case they could assume that the amount to charge at the higher rate would be the lower of the metered use in the period and the reported use by the EV/EVSE perhaps...

QrizB

MWT said:

Midday - midday is not in doubt, Phil Steele (Octopus) has confirmed it multiple times. 

In which case, they've chosen the difficult option. A bold move, Cotton.

MWT said:

They have not released the details yet on 'how' but it is trivial to flip the rate for an 'excess' HH period to peak ...

Agreed that it's going to be trivial to edit the billing. What we're debating is how you write that as a rule which can be consistently applied, is understandable to the users and will stand up to challenge.

MWT said:

Could alternatively use data from the EVSE or EV ...

I think that would need a T&C change.

MeteredOut

MWT said:

QrizB said:

MeteredOut said:

Octopus have stated measurement period for 6 hours is midday - midday.

If they've said that, there's two possibilities:

- They've given it less thought than I gave it when writing my reply; or

- They've worked it all out and just haven't told us the details yet.

Take your pick.

Midday - midday is not in doubt, Phil Steele (Octopus) has confirmed it multiple times. 

They have not released the details yet on 'how' but it is trivial to flip the rate for an 'excess' HH period to peak and they rebate based metered use in the HH minus the IOG completed dispatch for that period. 

Could alternatively use data from the EVSE or EV which would in most cases deliver an even lower cost.

Solar is not an issue at that time of day, so that just leaves people who allow their home batteries to discharge in that period which is also likely to be a very low number, but in that case they could assume that the amount to charge at the higher rate would be the lower of the metered use in the period and the reported use by the EV/EVSE perhaps...

But people would then be paying for some EV usage at peak rate, since what the car or charger reports as provided to the car is less that what will have been measured as consumed at the meter during the same period of time, due to charging losses (AC/DC conversion at the car, heat losses). These losses can be 10-20% (higher levels for granny charging).

So, in my 01:00 - 02:00 example above, that whole period would show as peak rate on the bill, but while, eg,  10kWh might delivered to the car, what the car will say as received is less, so the customer ends up paying peak rate for the difference. In effect, some house usage is being charged at peak during 23:30 - 05:30 due to the inaccuracies in the data Octopus have. I'm not 100% sure all the various chargers/car integrations even give half-hourly energy usage. which is what Octopus will require (but I'm sure they've checked this).

I'm not sure whether IOG can switch from to a unit rate model to rebate model without changes to the T&Cs either.

And I'm not sure they could even change the T&Cs to say they'll use the EVSE or EV figures to bill. I'm recalls its been said the supplier licences only allow them to bill based on calibrated devices (smart meter) and no chargers are calibrated devices.

I really don't think they thought it through fully before announcing it.

MWT

MeteredOut said:

MWT said:

QrizB said:

MeteredOut said:

Octopus have stated measurement period for 6 hours is midday - midday.

If they've said that, there's two possibilities:

- They've given it less thought than I gave it when writing my reply; or

- They've worked it all out and just haven't told us the details yet.

Take your pick.

Midday - midday is not in doubt, Phil Steele (Octopus) has confirmed it multiple times. 

They have not released the details yet on 'how' but it is trivial to flip the rate for an 'excess' HH period to peak and they rebate based metered use in the HH minus the IOG completed dispatch for that period. 

Could alternatively use data from the EVSE or EV which would in most cases deliver an even lower cost.

Solar is not an issue at that time of day, so that just leaves people who allow their home batteries to discharge in that period which is also likely to be a very low number, but in that case they could assume that the amount to charge at the higher rate would be the lower of the metered use in the period and the reported use by the EV/EVSE perhaps...

But people would then be paying for some EV usage at peak rate, since what the car or charger reports as provided to the car is less that what will have been measured as consumed at the meter during the same period of time, due to charging losses (AC/DC conversion at the car, heat losses). These losses can be 10-20% (higher levels for granny charging).

So, in my 01:00 - 02:00 example above, that whole period would show as peak rate on the bill, but while, eg,  10kWh might delivered to the car, what the car will say as received is less, so the customer ends up paying peak rate for the difference. In effect, some house usage is being charged at peak during 23:30 - 05:30 due to the inaccuracies in the data Octopus have. I'm not 100% sure all the various chargers/car integrations even give half-hourly energy usage. which is what Octopus will require (but I'm sure they've checked this).

The aim is for the EV to be paying at the peak rate so if they charge a little less than they should it errs on the side of the customer.

This mechanism is in place to charge peak rate when the EV is charging beyond the 6 hours allowed even if it is in the overnight low-rate period...

The other home use remains at the default rate for the time of day if the EV charging exceeds 6 hours.

MWT

QrizB said:

I think that would need a T&C change.

They already reserved the right to charge for EV smartcharging beyond 6 hours so not sure it would need a change, but what is certainly needed is some clarity...