UW, Econ 7 and Dimplex Quantum heater

Scot_39

lilac_dawn said:

OK, so an hour on the phone and this is my verdict: firstly, UW were a LOT easier to deal with than OVO (I spent hours on the phone to them in Sept trying to sort out a RTS meter - not mine!) 
Anyway, it took a while but the CS bod I spoke with immediately raised a complaint and got an engineer on the phone at his end (he said) who will reset the switch to match UW tariff times, at least that was my understanding. No more split times after 20 years He also said it was midnight to 7, but it could be 00:30-7:30 (which it is, as that's what the meter did last night). This will be done without 24 hours and he will call back on Monday.
He also raised a complaint, without any prompting, about the bill and has frozen it until they are sure the timings have been sorted. 
So I guess another late night to see if the immersion switches on at 00:30...
However, initial impressions of UW CS are good but will see what happens!

Id maybe have been tempted to ask for the 2+2+5 split if thats what you would prefer - especially as thats likely the easier change ?(*).

But at one stage EOn Next had specifically written into their T&CS they no longer supported tariffs with more than one off peak period (which I read as I will lose my 3 off peak E10 at next meter upgrade)

(*) Aso another - who seems quite savy on these things (@Ildhund iirc) - user has posted suggested a different level of permission is needed to change the ALCS timings.

But the main thing is they match - ALCS and tariff - for things like HW immersion and storage heaters.

And remember your not just checking for the immersion - you ideally at some point want to check the tariff rate.

Did you ever get the IHD out and up and working - mines struggles through 2 internal doors and the half brick wall (external meter cabinet - recessed into cavity) - Physically less than 4m apart. So can understand the frustration if a problem.  I sometimes - less than once per month typically - have to open one of the 2 internal doors to regain comms.

Ildhund

Scot_39 said:

...  a different level of permission is needed to change the ALCS timings.

That's my understanding, which is why it's pointless dispatching an engineer to the premises if it's the ALCS calendar that needs (re-)configuring. The one mentioned here is presumably at the supplier's HQ and can use the supplier's token to change the timings. 

lilac_dawn

I did ask for the split times but he said it couldn’t be done. Everything seems sorted though the same day I called so all good - as long as they manage to adjust the bill Thanks for everyone’s help.

lilac_dawn

Ildhund said:

Scot_39 said:

...  a different level of permission is needed to change the ALCS timings.

That's my understanding, which is why it's pointless dispatching an engineer to the premises if it's the ALCS calendar that needs (re-)configuring. The one mentioned here is presumably at the supplier's HQ and can use the supplier's token to change the timings. 

Apologies for the long post. I spoke too soon and I’m hoping someone knowledgeable can help.

As far as I can tell—by watching the meter and seeing which tariff was active, checking the indicator lights on the storage heaters and immersion to see when they were charging, and reviewing usage in the Bright app—I am pretty sure that Utility Warehouse changed the ALCS to match their peak/off-peak times. In other words, it is no longer split times, but a single off-peak block from 00:30–07:30. This change appeared to happen within 24 hours of my call to them, which was fine.

They then told me they would review my bill after a month to make sure everything was correct. This is where things fall apart.

By my calculations, I have had around six weeks where I was charged at the wrong rate. During that period I effectively received only five hours of off-peak charging for heating and immersion, while for roughly two hours each night these were charging at the high peak rate—at the same time I was also running appliances (washing machine, etc.), believing it was still off-peak.

I thought I had explained this clearly to Utility Warehouse. Instead, I’ve received an email stating that my times are split, that they cannot be changed, and that they do not match their own tariff times. They say:

“We are unable to manually adjust tariff timings to match a customer’s specific heating equipment (such as your ALCS setup) or the schedules set by previous suppliers. The off-peak hours are standardised based on the industry meter profile for your area.”

They go on to say that while they value me as a customer, they recognise that these fixed timings may not suit my setup, and if I decide to leave they will waive any early termination fee. If I stay, they are offering a goodwill gesture of £75.

This is where I’m confused. Am I going slightly mad here? Surely they must have manually adjusted the ALCS—otherwise my storage heaters wouldn’t now be switching on to charge at the new times.

How can I accurately work out the difference in my bill for those six weeks? Shouldn’t they be calculating and refunding the missing off-peak hours themselves (roughly two hours per night over six weeks)? Or is £75 likely to be about right anyway?

Scot_39

The original DNO off peak times were a band - not a fixed / prescriptive time.

And any supplier could choose times within that hour.  So say DNO set say 10pm-8am - 10 hour window in some regions - any 7 hours in that window was allowed - some suppliers did say the 2+2+5 split (1030 0030 0230 0730 was one iirc) and others the 7 hours single block (say 0030 0730), as long as first start and last end of off peak in the DNO window it was allowed.

So not convinced by what UW are saying - but there are those who understand metering and off peak times - who may update that old position.

But fundamentally - without tariff times and ALCS calendar times matching - your heating will never be billed correctly via register billing.

Now that doesn't mean they will necessarily match your old settings at a user request - but they should at least match each other.

[And if not meter ALCS controlled - tell you as accurately as they can what at least the nominal times are (you would have to check your own meters preset - shared offset)]

If I were you I'd want miss-billing compensation and exit fee free swap - if they made the two sets of timings out of sync - and not going to fix them (which is how I read your last post).

And swap to a supplier who understands multirate meters and ALCS based heating - like say Octopus Snug if have a smets2 in a good signal area - for ALCS control at 9p.

UW are not the first though to struggle with ALCS and E7 tariffs - BG got loads of complaints for their smart E7 roll out for instance in early years.

As to working out costs

The standard registers for weeks since will not help by themselves - but could be used for historic comparison(*) - once wrong they are wrong

If you have a smart meter and a lot of time / access - you could possibly pull daily data into a spreadsheet and use half hourly window data - reducing unit charge for those overcharged - and of course as seems likely adding costs for units undercharged - from daily totals.  Then adding those over 6 weeks - so 42 sets of data.  

(*) As a rougher guess - maybe last years monthly bills for last Sep/Oct/Nov etc if still have them - for old register based set-up with matching times - and take differences in peak and off peak used via the difference in rates.

Or ask UW to give you the figure - I suspect they wont - and then pass that onto Ombudsman after the 8 week complaint window when they likely refuse (as a low cost supplier - are they a low service provider - or decent in most cases).

lilac_dawn

Scot_39 said:

The original DNO off peak times were a band - not a fixed / prescriptive time.

And any supplier could choose times within that hour.  So say DNO set say 10pm-8am - 10 hour window in some regions - any 7 hours in that window was allowed - some suppliers did say the 2+2+5 split (1030 0030 0230 0730 was one iirc) and others the 7 hours single block (say 0030 0730), as long as first start and last end of off peak in the DNO window it was allowed.

So not convinced by what UW are saying - but there are those who understand metering and off peak times - who may update that old position.

But fundamentally - without tariff times and ALCS calendar times matching - your heating will never be billed correctly via register billing.

Now that doesn't mean they will necessarily match your old settings at a user request - but they should at least match each other.

[And if not meter ALCS controlled - tell you as accurately as they can what at least the nominal times are (you would have to check your own meters preset - shared offset)]

If I were you I'd want miss-billing compensation and exit fee free swap - if they made the two sets of timings out of sync - and not going to fix them (which is how I read your last post).

And swap to a supplier who understands multirate meters and ALCS based heating - like say Octopus Snug if have a smets2 in a good signal area - for ALCS control at 9p.

UW are not the first though to struggle with ALCS and E7 tariffs - BG got loads of complaints for their smart E7 roll out for instance in early years.

As to working out costs

The standard registers for weeks since will not help by themselves - but could be used for historic comparison(*) - once wrong they are wrong

If you have a smart meter and a lot of time / access - you could possibly pull daily data into a spreadsheet and use half hourly window data - reducing unit charge for those overcharged - and of course as seems likely adding costs for units undercharged - from daily totals.  Then adding those over 6 weeks - so 42 sets of data.  

(*) As a rougher guess - maybe last years monthly bills for last Sep/Oct/Nov etc if still have them - for old register based set-up with matching times - and take differences in peak and off peak used via the difference in rates.

Or ask UW to give you the figure - I suspect they wont - and then pass that onto Ombudsman after the 8 week complaint window when they likely refuse (as a low cost supplier - are they a low service provider - or decent in most cases).

But that's my point: they have adjusted the ALCS calendar to match their off-peak tariff times. Everything is turning on at 00:30 and off at 7:30. They say they haven't done it?  At this point, I am not bothered by losing the split times. I just want to make sure I haven't lost out money-wise by paying too much for the 6 weeks of mismatch. 

QrizB

One word: Ombudsman.

It's time to escalate your complaint to the grown-ups.

Scot_39

Going back through some of your early posts - my swings and roundabouts - is more like snakes and ladders - and youve probably been hitting more snakes - losing the game - so overpaying potentially.

And when UW mix up the terms and your heater settings (your ALCS) - thats a tad worrying - as ALCS is entirely in their control - and only for an ALCS twin rate meter.

But this kind of forced me into re-reading your ealrier posts again - and me wittering on about ALCS -  was wrong for single wired quantums (which would be 24/7 live wired in any case) - as it's only tariff times and quantum installation parameter set charge times that should govern the mismatch in costs for it. So apologies.

 

And the sort of numbers I am imagining arent too different from the over 200 monthly swings in the first bill - if NSH not taking full 2 hr charge every night of the mismatch.

Depends on what was on / used - in the periods overcharged and undercharged. my NSH arent on again at the moment - but were for a week or two in mid Nov - had all 3 on at one stage - so must have been cold - a couple of -3/-4s iirc.

And depends if worried about other late night use - or just heating - or just HW - or all of the above.

See if you think this makes sense - I could again be wrong - but I think it broadly agrees with your expected overcharging summary in c4pm post above

1) Quantum 

Assuming you arent using the upto 1.1kWh boost element on largest model - lower on smaller.

My uderstanding is your initial config was pre UW / changes the 1030pm split - and your single wire Quantum NSH manually programmed to match - so say 00:00/00:30 02:30/07:30 and 22:30/23:59 using 3 of the 4 available periods on Dimplex's (sorry I cannot remember if the one min midnight goes on end or start for sure without downloading the manual) -ignoring any meter preset offset - which would apply to nominal tariff times and ALCS if were relying on it.  (So 1030 might have been 10:40 if 10 mins preset etc but you suggest is 1030 in your case)

So if it switched on and charged at 10:30pm for n weeks - as soon as UW changed the tariff schedule to 00:30 - the first upto 2 hours of any charge would have been charged at peak not off peak rate.

You would then have had the heater off charge for 2 hours - and back on for upto another 5 hours from 2:30 - all within the new off peak tariff times - so no cost difference for those hours.

And if the charge all front loaded over the 7 hour window - on E7 I d expect it to be more likely (on my E10 with short gaps - less so overnight period) - that upto 2 hours is upto c6.6 kWh iirc rating a day on the 150 series in wrong register - less pro rata on smaller heaters - upto c200kWh per month - or less for smaller - potentially overcharged.

Times     10 30 11 30 00 30 01 30 02 30 03 30 04 30 05 30 06 30 07 30

Old Tar   P  OP               P                  OP                                            P

New Tar P  <               >OP                                                                 P     - 1030 0029 - Period overcharged

Old NS Par  On              Off<             >On                                           Off    - Period when unexpected undercharge

New NS Par                   On                                                                 Off

2) HW possibly similar - with a 3kW immersion heater and a large tank / lots of use.  If ever ran for full two hours. Mine wouldnt - but even 1 hour on ave in the 1030 to 0030 slot - another 3kWh - so 90kWh a month.

3) Rest of home -  anyones guess - but if you were saving / doing larger loads - like a 1kWh+ washing cycle or tumble dryer in what you thought was the cheap 1030 to 0030 slot - another 1-2 kWh per day - xx kWh per month overcharged.

4) The mismatch the other way - when rate might have been unexpectedly cheaper 0030 to 0230 - for most would be low usage. And expecting it to be high rate - you wouldnt as wise to it be scheduling timed loads for it.

5) And at the end of both sets of times - so things like say timing breakfast cooking or large loads - like WM so clothes not sitting damp for hours - or a cold fed shower before 0730 GMT (0830 BST) to save on rates wouldnt change - both were cheap rates until 0730/0830 BST. 

But as earlier post - unless you have the time and energy - and you say you have Bright - and have been tacking it closely - so perhaps you do - to access those 4 hours / 8 1/2 hourly readings to crunch exact numbers.

The offer of £75 - at say a day / night difference of 17.8p (Octopus average SVT peak-offpeak) (But  I think UW have larger differentials in some regions than likes of EOn) - c420 kWh - so its not that silly a comp amount - nor is it generous.

Of course if UW are still at 5p off peak - peak over 40 ?? - that differential could be double Octopus aver and so the kWh the £75 compensated for could be halved - so maybe around 200kWh - and so potentially less than generous

Another sanity check is the annual swing on those kWh misbilled in your first post

303  / 128   vs old 76 / 409  (bearing in mind a c12% greater total) 

10 kWh day / day vs 2.5kWh 

4 kWh night / day vs 12kWh per night.  with a fag packet mental arithmetic rounding drop for 12% on later.

Back to 7.5-8kWh per day on average shift low night to higher day rates - all other things being not exactly equal - as a first guess - potentially overbilled. So maybe upto 240kWh per month - or 330 kWh for 6 weeks.

What would say 330kWh extra at higher peak vs off peak rate cost you on UW rates (on Oct 17.8p = £59) ?

Or if already downloaded 1/2 hourly - do the sums for a couple of typical days - then if appears wildly under - challenge the £75 compensation - unless they are also offering to recalculate the bills as well for the 6 weeks.

(So if the £75 includes the costs seems tight)

Cost + £50 compensation for the hassle - if really wanted to push it (a typical opening shut up fee in couple of recent past complaint experiences - but not from energy co in my case).

But £75 likely close on just costs.  

If like their rates - vs other's E7 - it is likely to be worth staying I guess - even if marginal.  And bank the £75 to cover your missbilled payment for the 6 weeks

lilac_dawn

@Scot_39 Thank you so much for taking the time to do this - I really appreciate it. Apologies for not replying sooner; other things have got in the way, unfortunately. It is quite a difference in tariff with UW: low is 5.504 and high 36.814. There 'goodwill' gesture is also based on the fact that they originally told me I would retain the split hours. They haven't grasped the fact that they have billed me incorrectly. If it wasn't for that, I would let it slide and just take the £75. I have replied to them though repeating the issue so will see what they come back with. I could certainly do with some cash towards this last month's bill as my SH have been very firmly on!

Heedtheadvice

Unlike some other utility suppliers ( where I had had to involved the ombudsman to get satisfaction) I have found UW CS quite good...though obviously not for you.

 I would go back again to UW with with all your experience laid out, tell them what you want/ need and try again to get a resolution  -agreed over the phone and confirmed by them in writing. If actuality does not then meet what they have agreed raise the formal complaint. 

Recent discussions I have had on a couple of UW services have had good and virtually instant results.