'Why can't you just cut Standing Charges?' – Martin Lewis puts your questions to regulator boss

Scot_39

5% vat is a fraction of the pseudo taxes and govt imposed costs built into policy, debt and net zero costs.

"Fiddling while Rome burns"  springs to mind.

With nearly half the vat level £84 added in just tge Oct cap by her govt net zero and social / subsidy via bill not tax policy. Helping to drive our bills up ave £51 -  Wholesale down £15 - ave cap up £35.

superkoopauk

MattMattMattUK said:

michaels said:

I wonder if we will see an announcement on VAT on fuel, zero standing charge or a social utility tariff in the budget?

I think the removal of VAT on domestic energy is pretty much guaranteed, stupid as that will be. No to the other two.

I would be shocked if they did remove VAT.  Agree on no to the other two (Ofgem are progressing the standing charge piece and debt relief scheme which are the closest to anything happening in this space).

Grumpy_chap

michaels said:

I wonder if we will see an announcement on VAT on fuel, zero standing charge or a social utility tariff in the budget?

Reduced VAT on fuel / energy might happen - though possibly not given the way the Government are trying to recover funds from EV charging.  Infrastructure does not currently support differentiation in what the electricity is use for.

I read something about a form of social utility tariff a week or so back and it did not seem to be well thought out.  The idea I heard was that some people with energy debt would have their debt written off in return for everyone paying £5 per year on their energy bill.  That does not seem to be a route to encouraging sensible financial management.  It also places the highest punitive burden on those equally as low income as those who accrued an energy debt and had it written off but prioritised their energy bills.  I don't see energy bills as the appropriate place for hidden taxes.

QrizB

Could two  more people report the bboy2000 spam a couple of posts above, please?

WiserMiser

Grumpy_chap said:

michaels said:

I wonder if we will see an announcement on VAT on fuel, zero standing charge or a social utility tariff in the budget?

Reduced VAT on fuel / energy might happen - though possibly not given the way the Government are trying to recover funds from EV charging.  Infrastructure does not currently support differentiation in what the electricity is use for.

The infrastructure certainly does support differentiation in what the electricity is used for.  It's not widely known, but The Electric Vehicles (Smart Charge Points) Regulations 2021 require EV home chargers in GB  to snitch on how many kWh you've used, and when.  Obviously this is intended as a way to replace all the duty charged on petrol and diesel.

Given the above, it's unclear why the rumoured 3p/mile EV tax (which won't remain 3p for long) will be based on simple mileometer readings.  But either way, anyone who thinks that the running costs of their expensive EV will always be cheaper than an ICE vehicle will soon have a rude awakening.  Cardiff is already planning to charge EVs more for parking, the excuse being that they're heavier, and many others will doubtless follow their lead so it'll be a double whammy.

matt_drummer

WiserMiser said:

But either way, anyone who thinks that the running costs of their expensive EV will always be cheaper than an ICE vehicle will soon have a rude awakening.  Cardiff is already planning to charge EVs more for parking, the excuse being that they're heavier, and many others will doubtless follow their lead so it'll be a double whammy.

Happy are you? Do you think it will kill off ev's so that you can get back to the `stone age' and carry on burning stuff until its all gone?

My wife's `expensive' ev was the same price as the `expensive' petrol version.

My `expensive' ev is still considerably less `expensive' than any ice vehicle with anything close to the performance and features it offers.

And it weighs the same or less in any case!

We didn't get electric cars to save money as I suspect many others didn't, they're just better and don't burn anything!

I think you are assuming that the cost of running an ev will increase, and you may well be correct.

However. I think it is you who will have the rude awakening when you realise that your smelly, dirty and polluting ice vehicle will cost more too, a lot more!

NotArobot24

Grumpy_chap said:

michaels said:

I wonder if we will see an announcement on VAT on fuel, zero standing charge or a social utility tariff in the budget?

I read something about a form of social utility tariff a week or so back and it did not seem to be well thought out.  The idea I heard was that some people with energy debt would have their debt written off in return for everyone paying £5 per year on their energy bill.  That does not seem to be a route to encouraging sensible financial management.  It also places the highest punitive burden on those equally as low income as those who accrued an energy debt and had it written off but prioritised their energy bills.  I don't see energy bills as the appropriate place for hidden taxes.

I think it would be really wrong to "forgive" debt in this way, I live very frugally, I have taken advice from this website to heat the person not the home.  I did not put the heating on for years unless it was well below zero and even then just enough to take the edge off. 

Now compare that to two residents in the same block, one smokes and deals weed, the other is an alcoholic drunk most of the time and really bad antisocial behaviour as well as subletting which is fraud for social housing.  Both of these had pre-payment meters put in because they spent their money on recreational things instead of paying their bills.  My understanding is that the pre-payment/Smart Meter takes their debt on some sort of pay as you go basis, that seems fair, it is their debt,  What is NOT fair is asking everyone else to pay for their debt which is inevitably what will happen, so basically you, me and everyone else will be funding their drink and drug habits.  Both of these guys are on UC and fiddle it by not declaring their work.  They are paid cash in hand and seem to live in a cash society.

When I was struggling to make ends meet I was referred to 4 Saturday sessions at a local foodbank, it was freezing outside and quite humiliating, yet there were people there smoking and one even puffing weed.  It seems to me that they should be stopping smoking before getting access to food bank.  I never went back there, the food they had was awful and I could not even eat most of it, I just rely on reductions at the supermarket.  These offer far less than they used to, LIDL cut 60% to 50% and 30% to 20%, ALDI still offer 30%, 50% and then 75% but it is very rare to find anything at 75% unless it has been damaged.  I think it reflects that many more people are feeling the pinch and buying the 30% off so it never gets reduced further. Tesco are the worst, they used to offer up to 90% at the very end of the day, now it is barely 50% and because their prices are so high to begin with the items are still unaffordable and not worth the risk considering they are on date. Yet they made £3bn, we are being fleeced on food costs, they all went up massively, some over 100% more, but they did not roll back.  I am paying 65% more than I was, some things which I can't afford are still 100% more. 

I find it bizarre that so many defend the energy companies on here, not sure what to make of that, but I do appreciate the experience of those posting here.  Not sure why people insulted Martin, I know he sold the site for £90m and I say well done to him.  He could have walked away to other ventures, but he has been a stalwart defender of consumers, even if the site does not offer anything like the deals it used to.

Now ill health means I feel it more, I think that 18C is easily tolerable for me, sometimes I get that only because properties around me have their heating on.  The weather is a factor, last week we had cold started but temperature increased during the day, so home was around 16C it is worse when there is a draught from a window vent.  I am not going to close those because that would encourage mold. Typically tolerate 12C in usual winter weather Dec to March, sometimes that can go to 9C, my building radiates cold, it will remain cold for 3 or 4 days after heavy rain and a strong wind makes it colder.  I am sure there are people on here who face a much colder home, I  have myself lived in such homes.

I do think he is right in that something needs to give in the pricing, I think the money taken from energy bills needs to be stopped, if it is a "green" tax then let's have the green subsidies and green taxes taken outside from bills.

I was going back through my records and looked at the rates for two companies with low or no service charges compared with current charged for the leading supplier today.

Zero Standing

Elec Energy 14.548p/kWh 

Gas Energy 3.480

Gas Standing 0.00p/day 

Elec Standing 0.00p/day

Low Standing

Elec Energy 12.340p/kWh 

Gas Energy 3.093p

Gas Standing 10p/day 

Elec Standing 15p/day 

Current rates

Elec Energy 25.27p/kWh 

Gas Energy 5.92p/kWh 

Gas Standing 31.15p/day 

Elec Standing 45.04p/day 

76.19p a day equates to £278.09 per annum but some suppliers are charging well over £300 before they use a single kWh.

People like me who have will power to not put on heating would like a way to have that £300 as energy but of course it is not that simple, instead of a straight credit the energy companies come up with ways like the first X per day you get this rate or you get 1kWh free per day rather than the 5.26 kWh a day the standing charge equates to.  It seems that by making it complex they will find an opportunity to stitch up customers.

This year for the first time I will get £150 from Gov, that equates to £25 a month, which would not cover the extra cost I pay for heating but I do not think it would be reasonable for Gov to pay all of my heating, I am grateful for that £150, it was an unexpected surprise.

It seems to me that there is a far simpler way to take money from the Energy Companies, many of whom are structured in ways to reduce their profits, which is a windfall tax on profits, perhaps it could be done for those issuing dividends, maybe a tax on dividends generally, this would capture those who avoid NI by paying themselves dividends and found ways to avoid IR35.  

At same time those energy companies could be given a tax break if they invested more in UK energy infrastructure, particularly EV charging points with regulated pricing, EV owners are being really fleeced at the moment if they charge away from home. 

I would favour a system where they enter in some codes and their usage away from home is charged at their home on their home energy bill.  This would help the move to EV for people in flats who currently struggle to get EV charging points.  The incentive for the energy companies to fund the charging stations would be they get a tax break on how much they invest and they also benefit from charging for the EV used on the consumers bill.

Something definitely needs to done about Standing Charges, but if we just have a rate that has been increased to take account of absorbing the £300 we penalise those who need to use more energy.  If we have rates for the first X units then a lower rate for the remaining then we are just hiding the Standing Charge so people do not get a clear view of how much they are being fleeced for Standing Charges.

End of TLDR

matt_drummer

NotArobot24 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

michaels said:

I wonder if we will see an announcement on VAT on fuel, zero standing charge or a social utility tariff in the budget?

I read something about a form of social utility tariff a week or so back and it did not seem to be well thought out.  The idea I heard was that some people with energy debt would have their debt written off in return for everyone paying £5 per year on their energy bill.  That does not seem to be a route to encouraging sensible financial management.  It also places the highest punitive burden on those equally as low income as those who accrued an energy debt and had it written off but prioritised their energy bills.  I don't see energy bills as the appropriate place for hidden taxes.

I think it would be really wrong to "forgive" debt in this way, I live very frugally, I have taken advice from this website to heat the person not the home.  I did not put the heating on for years unless it was well below zero and even then just enough to take the edge off. 

Now compare that to two residents in the same block, one smokes and deals weed, the other is an alcoholic drunk most of the time and really bad antisocial behaviour as well as subletting which is fraud for social housing.  Both of these had pre-payment meters put in because they spent their money on recreational things instead of paying their bills.  My understanding is that the pre-payment/Smart Meter takes their debt on some sort of pay as you go basis, that seems fair, it is their debt,  What is NOT fair is asking everyone else to pay for their debt which is inevitably what will happen, so basically you, me and everyone else will be funding their drink and drug habits.  Both of these guys are on UC and fiddle it by not declaring their work.  They are paid cash in hand and seem to live in a cash society.

When I was struggling to make ends meet I was referred to 4 Saturday sessions at a local foodbank, it was freezing outside and quite humiliating, yet there were people there smoking and one even puffing weed.  It seems to me that they should be stopping smoking before getting access to food bank.  I never went back there, the food they had was awful and I could not even eat most of it, I just rely on reductions at the supermarket.  These offer far less than they used to, LIDL cut 60% to 50% and 30% to 20%, ALDI still offer 30%, 50% and then 75% but it is very rare to find anything at 75% unless it has been damaged.  I think it reflects that many more people are feeling the pinch and buying the 30% off so it never gets reduced further.

I find it bizarre that so many defend the energy companies on here, not sure what to make of that, but I do appreciate the experience of those posting here.  Not sure why people insulted Martin, I know he sold the site for £90m and I say well done to him.  He could have walked away to other ventures, but he has been a stalwart defender of consumers, even if the site does not offer anything like the deals it used to.

Now ill health means I feel it more, I think that 18C is easily tolerable for me, sometimes I get that only because properties around me have their heating on.  The weather is a factor, last week we had cold started but temperature increased during the day, so home was around 16C it is worse when there is a draught from a window vent.  I am not going to close those because that would encourage mold. Typically tolerate 12C in usual winter weather Dec to March, sometimes that can go to 9C, my building radiates cold, it will remain cold for 3 or 4 days after heavy rain and a strong wind makes it colder.  I am sure there are people on here who face a much colder home, I  have myself lived in such homes.

I do think he is right in that something needs to give in the pricing, I think the money taken from energy bills needs to be stopped, if it is a "green" tax then let's have the green subsidies and green taxes taken outside from bills.

I was going back through my records and looked at the rates for two companies with low or no service charges compared with current charged for the leading supplier today.

Zero Standing

Elec Energy 14.548p/kWh 

Gas Energy 3.480

Gas Standing 0.00p/day 

Elec Standing 0.00p/day

Low Standing

Elec Energy 12.340p/kWh 

Gas Energy 3.093p

Gas Standing 10p/day 

Elec Standing 15p/day 

Current rates

Elec Energy 25.27p/kWh 

Gas Energy 5.92p/kWh 

Gas Standing 31.15p/day 

Elec Standing 45.04p/day 

76.19p a day equates to £278.09 per annum but some suppliers are charging well over £300 before they use a single kWh.

People like me who have will power to not put on heating would like a way to have that £300 as energy but of course it is not that simple, instead of a straight credit the energy companies come up with ways like the first X per day you get this rate or you get 1kWh free per day rather than the 5.26 kWh a day the standing charge equates to.  It seems that by making it complex they will find an opportunity to stitch up customers.

This year for the first time I will get £150 from Gov, that equates to £25 a month, which would not cover the extra cost I pay for heating but I do not think it would be reasonable for Gov to pay all of my heating, I am grateful for that £150, it was an unexpected surprise.

It seems to me that there is a far simpler way to take money from the Energy Companies, many of whom are structured in ways to reduce their profits, which is a windfall tax on profits, perhaps it could be done for those issuing dividends, maybe a tax on dividends generally, this would capture those who avoid NI by paying themselves dividends and found ways to avoid IR35.  

At same time those energy companies could be given a tax break if they invested more in UK energy infrastructure, particularly EV charging points with regulated pricing, EV owners are being really fleeced at the moment if they charge away from home. 

I would favour a system where they enter in some codes and their usage away from home is charged at their home on their home energy bill.  This would help the move to EV for people in flats who currently struggle to get EV charging points.  The incentive for the energy companies to fund the charging stations would be they get a tax break on how much they invest and they also benefit from charging for the EV used on the consumers bill.

Something definitely needs to done about Standing Charges, but if we just have a rate that has been increased to take account of absorbing the £300 we penalise those who need to use more energy.  If we have rates for the first X units then a lower rate for the remaining then we are just hiding the Standing Charge so people do not get a clear view of how much they are being fleeced for Standing Charges.

End of TLDR

All that to say that you don't want to pay the standing charge?

You just want to pay for what you use and contribute nothing to the running costs?

Why shouldn't you pay?

You're poor?

Or you just want me to pay your part of it so you have more to spend elsewhere.

I have a solution.

Just take all my money from working along with all the others like me, and then give it all to the rest of you who resent paying the same as me.

WiserMiser

matt_drummer said:

WiserMiser said:

But either way, anyone who thinks that the running costs of their expensive EV will always be cheaper than an ICE vehicle will soon have a rude awakening.  Cardiff is already planning to charge EVs more for parking, the excuse being that they're heavier, and many others will doubtless follow their lead so it'll be a double whammy.

However. I think it is you who will have the rude awakening when you realise that your smelly, dirty and polluting ice vehicle will cost more too, a lot more!

Wrong assumption: I have a self-charging EV.

Yes, it will cost more.  I'll have to pay VED for the first time next April - a massive £20 ! 😈

matt_drummer

WiserMiser said:

matt_drummer said:

WiserMiser said:

But either way, anyone who thinks that the running costs of their expensive EV will always be cheaper than an ICE vehicle will soon have a rude awakening.  Cardiff is already planning to charge EVs more for parking, the excuse being that they're heavier, and many others will doubtless follow their lead so it'll be a double whammy.

However. I think it is you who will have the rude awakening when you realise that your smelly, dirty and polluting ice vehicle will cost more too, a lot more!

Wrong assumption: I have a self-charging EV.

Yes, it will cost more.  I'll have to pay VED for the first time next April - a massive £20 ! 😈

It's not an ev then!

How does it self charge?

How is your VED only £20?

Presumably you have an engine?

I think the VED's on our ev's are £195 each.

Mine would have been £600+ a year but I made sure I got it before 01 April this year.

It doesn't seem quite equitable, some diesel cars still have a VED of £0 yet most ev's are £195 or more.

I don't think my assumption is wrong though.

Your `ev' needs petrol to `self charge'. correct?

That is not self charging, that is burning fossil fuel, tt will get expensive!