Recommendations for alternative bank - HSBC requiring phone app

GeoffTF

booneruk said:

The important thing is, after all this implication and maybe - did any customer lose their money?

That is a good question. I asked Google and found this from a firm of solicitors, "Unauthorised Transaction Fraud Refund: Get Your Money Back After An Unauthorised Payment Scam":

https://www.tlwsolicitors.co.uk/unauthorised-transactions/

It happens, otherwise solicitors would not be needed challenge the bank's decision in court.

GeoffTF

Here is an Ombudsman decision:

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decision/DRN-4272081.pdf

In this case the phone was unlocked. The critical point is of the decision is:

"I understand the suggestion about “jailbreaking”, and could see how some aspects of the phone could be altered, but this doesn’t account for how the thieves knew the passcode or were able to pass authentication with Mr M’s biometric ID.
...

I think it’s more likely than not that Mr M was responsible for these transactions by allowing others to use his account, and it was reasonable for Barclays to hold him liable for them."

You would have an unequal fight if your banking app was compromised by technical means.

grumpy_codger

GeoffTF said:

booneruk said:

The important thing is, after all this implication and maybe - did any customer lose their money?

That is a good question. I asked Google and found this from a firm of solicitors, "Unauthorised Transaction Fraud Refund: Get Your Money Back After An Unauthorised Payment Scam":

https://www.tlwsolicitors.co.uk/unauthorised-transactions/

It happens, otherwise solicitors would not be needed challenge the bank's decision in court.

I searched the webpage for 'court'. Zero entries. Most likely they just do the job that people with some brains can DIY. Hardly a surprise that many 'victims' cannot do this or simply CBA and rather pay to solicitors.

GeoffTF

grumpy_codger said:

GeoffTF said:

booneruk said:

The important thing is, after all this implication and maybe - did any customer lose their money?

That is a good question. I asked Google and found this from a firm of solicitors, "Unauthorised Transaction Fraud Refund: Get Your Money Back After An Unauthorised Payment Scam":

https://www.tlwsolicitors.co.uk/unauthorised-transactions/

It happens, otherwise solicitors would not be needed challenge the bank's decision in court.

I searched the webpage for 'court'. Zero entries. Most likely they just do the job that people with some brains can DIY. Hardly a surprise that many 'victims' cannot do this or simply CBA and rather pay to solicitors.

Perhaps I jumped to conclusions there. It says: "Our expert team can help you make a no-win, no-fee refund claim – you won’t have to pay us anything if your claim is unsuccessful." It could be a claim to the bank, the FOS or a court, but why would you need a solicitor to make a claim to the bank or the FOS?

GeoffTF

"The FCA and PSR - who first launched the research back in July last year - warned that people could become "more dependent" on digital wallets, which could leave them in difficulties. For example, if someone does not have backup options such as cash or physical cards or the technology fails, they may be unable to pay for a product or service they have already consumed or used. Alongside this, the regulator noted the heightened risk of theft from people's accounts through stolen devices, warning that criminals have been adapting their tactics to get around security measures such as face and fingerprint ID."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/warning-issued-anyone-who-pays-34723371

eskbanker

GeoffTF said:

grumpy_codger said:

GeoffTF said:

booneruk said:

The important thing is, after all this implication and maybe - did any customer lose their money?

That is a good question. I asked Google and found this from a firm of solicitors, "Unauthorised Transaction Fraud Refund: Get Your Money Back After An Unauthorised Payment Scam":

https://www.tlwsolicitors.co.uk/unauthorised-transactions/

It happens, otherwise solicitors would not be needed challenge the bank's decision in court.

I searched the webpage for 'court'. Zero entries. Most likely they just do the job that people with some brains can DIY. Hardly a surprise that many 'victims' cannot do this or simply CBA and rather pay to solicitors.

Perhaps I jumped to conclusions there. It says: "Our expert team can help you make a no-win, no-fee refund claim – you won’t have to pay us anything if your claim is unsuccessful." It could be a claim to the bank, the FOS or a court, but why would you need a solicitor to make a claim to the bank or the FOS?

Surely they're just the same as any other claims management company, i.e. their business model is to give punters a sense of reassurance that paying ambulance-chasers is worth doing despite it being entirely possible to pursue it themselves?

booneruk

GeoffTF said:

"The FCA and PSR - who first launched the research back in July last year - warned that people could become "more dependent" on digital wallets, which could leave them in difficulties. For example, if someone does not have backup options such as cash or physical cards or the technology fails, they may be unable to pay for a product or service they have already consumed or used. Alongside this, the regulator noted the heightened risk of theft from people's accounts through stolen devices, warning that criminals have been adapting their tactics to get around security measures such as face and fingerprint ID."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/warning-issued-anyone-who-pays-34723371

I won't post the AI response here, but I gave a few AI engines the following prompt

"Is this article balanced, or intended to stoke fear? The words if, may and could are doing some very heavy lifting. https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/warning-issued-anyone-who-pays-34723371"

Feel free to do this also 

flaneurs_lobster

GeoffTF said:

"The FCA and PSR - who first launched the research back in July last year - warned that people could become "more dependent" on digital wallets, which could leave them in difficulties. For example, if someone does not have backup options such as cash or physical cards or the technology fails, they may be unable to pay for a product or service they have already consumed or used. Alongside this, the regulator noted the heightened risk of theft from people's accounts through stolen devices, warning that criminals have been adapting their tactics to get around security measures such as face and fingerprint ID."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/warning-issued-anyone-who-pays-34723371

Well again here's a quote saying that bad actors have found some mysterious way to "get around" face/fingerprint ID security.

No doubt you will say that they can't give details because this would somehow encourage further fraud if more people know the techniques.

Well here's a method to unlock any phone, regardless of the mechanism, for free - put the owner's finger between the jaws of a pair of bolt-cutters and the phone will magically unlock.

I assert again, other than by action by the phone's owner, a phone locked by passcode or biometrics cannot be accessed by a thief.

Maybe time to reiterate the idea that carrying a device around all the time that gives access to all your accounts maybe isn't the finest idea. Not just theft, losing the thing becomes more problematic.

Stick the apps of the one or two you might actually need when out, then leave the others for your other device/laptop at home. 2FA for these can still live on your main phone.

GeoffTF

flaneurs_lobster said:

GeoffTF said:

"The FCA and PSR - who first launched the research back in July last year - warned that people could become "more dependent" on digital wallets, which could leave them in difficulties. For example, if someone does not have backup options such as cash or physical cards or the technology fails, they may be unable to pay for a product or service they have already consumed or used. Alongside this, the regulator noted the heightened risk of theft from people's accounts through stolen devices, warning that criminals have been adapting their tactics to get around security measures such as face and fingerprint ID."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/warning-issued-anyone-who-pays-34723371

I assert again, other than by action by the phone's owner, a phone locked by passcode or biometrics cannot be accessed by a thief.

The most senior policemen in charge of countering mobile phone theft seems to believe otherwise, at least for some phones. Try searching for "software to unlock phones". There are products on offer. They might be scams of course. People are not likely to go to the police if an empty box arrives. I do not know what the capabilities of mobile phone thieves are, but I have no reason to believe that my old phone cannot be hacked. There was a case where the FBI paid to have a locked iPhone hacked. The method used was widely publicised, but was not suitable for phone thieves. There would not be any benefit for me to put financial apps on my phone, so there is no point in me doing that.