Another sad cancelled wedding question

Okell

@FadingGinger

OK.

AIUI the damage deposit of £1000 has been returned plus accomodation costs of £2600.  (Can I say I'm confused why you've included accommodation costs in the amount you've paid as it sounds like the guests paid those costs, not you, and it's the guests who have been refunded.  If you didn't pay the accommodation costs then by including them it muddies the waters of how much refund you are entitled to).

If I'm correct that leaves a disputed amount of £11675 made up of venue hire (£4439) plus catering drinks and service (£7236).  Yes?

You have then - rather confusingly I think - "politely proposed that they return the catering/service cost less the accommodation cost already returned..."

I think that's confusing because I don't see what the accommodation costs have to do with your refund if your guests paid them and your guests have been refunded.

By the way, I don't think your offer is a bad one - in fact I think it might be over generous - but I think it's badly phrased.

I think I'd have said:

 "OK - Even though we're just outside the 6 week deadline, we reluctantly accept we are liable for the venue hire (£4439) because it's probably too short notice for you to hire it out to anyone else.  However, in respect of the catering, drinks and service, then - regardless of what your T&Cs say - you are only legally entitled to either loss of profit or costs you have already incurred.  Retaining 100% of your charge for catering, drinks and service is clearly unjustifiable and unreasonable - unless you want to argue that the charge is either all profit or all costs, which I doubt a court would accept as true.  I propose that to settle this amicably then you retain £7000 of the remaining £11675 in question, and refund the balance to us"

I think that's how I would have put to them your offer of them keeping £7000.

I'm sure some others here will think your offer over generous too.

Try putting the argument to them as above and see how they react - especially regarding that legally they can only retain loss of profits or costs already incurred - not 100% of the charge.

See what others suggest about possibly reducing the amount they retain (eg 5k?) and increasing your refund.  I think you could get more than £7k but you don't want to overdo it

Okell

ThumbRemote said:

It's unusual for me not to side with a consumer on this board, but this time I think you're expecting far too much. 

Your payments aren't just profit to a venue, they cover fixed costs like year-round salaries, maintenance for the property, the planning that's already gone into the event, etc. Everyone saying that the food doesn't have to be prepared - realistically, the food cost is a very limited part of the overall costs, the staff payments for preparing it are much greater. Who knows whether the chef(s) still have to be paid; management of the venue certainly will. 

The venue have presumably also lost anticipated bar takings for the event, which could easily be a 4-figure sum. 

They've already refunded you the accommodation charge, which they absolutely didn't need to do. At such short notice they aren't going to get anything back on that. The fact that, despite this, you're already bad-mouthing them and considering leaving bad reviews suggests you're upset and the situation and lashing out at them. 

You claim that "in law a contract needs to meet certain tests of fairness and balance" then suggest that this one doesn't. How is it unfair or unbalanced? Maybe turn things around - would you have been happy if the venue cancelled 39 days in advance of the wedding? And if they had, how much would you be expecting them to compensate you?

This is not the venues fault, it's not the staffs fault, and it's unreasonable of them to lose out financially because of the cancellation. 

At first I agreed with you, but looking at the figures again I'm not so sure.

The damage deposit doesn't come into the equation and (AIUI) neither should the accommodation costs as those are between the hotel and the guests.

That leaves a disputed amount of £11675.

Of that amount the OP seems to accept liability for the venue hire (£4439)

On top of that the OP has basically offered to accept liability for 35% of the catering, drinks and service charge, meaning that the OP won't argue with the venue retaining £7000 of the disputed £11675

That seems reasonable to me as - of that catering, drinks and service charge - the venue is only legally entitled to retain either their loss of profit or costs already incurred.

35% seems a very generous estimate of lost profit/costs already incurred...

[Edit:  I suppose my point is that the OP has in effect written off the cost of venue hire - he's accepted that.  But I don't think the venue is also entitled to retain 100% of the catering, drinks and service charge when they are only legally entitled to keep an amount representing either loss of profit or costs already incurred.  I think the OP's offer was a reasonable one (possibly over generous) and the venue are being greedy]

FadingGinger

Okell said:

@FadingGinger

OK.

AIUI the damage deposit of £1000 has been returned plus accomodation costs of £2600.  (Can I say I'm confused why you've included accommodation costs in the amount you've paid as it sounds like the guests paid those costs, not you, and it's the guests who have been refunded.  If you didn't pay the accommodation costs then by including them it muddies the waters of how much refund you are entitled to).

If I'm correct that leaves a disputed amount of £11675 made up of venue hire (£4439) plus catering drinks and service (£7236).  Yes?

You have then - rather confusingly I think - "politely proposed that they return the catering/service cost less the accommodation cost already returned..."

I think that's confusing because I don't see what the accommodation costs have to do with your refund if your guests paid them and your guests have been refunded.

By the way, I don't think your offer is a bad one - in fact I think it might be over generous - but I think it's badly phrased.

I think I'd have said:

 "OK - Even though we're just outside the 6 week deadline, we reluctantly accept we are liable for the venue hire (£4439) because it's probably too short notice for you to hire it out to anyone else.  However, in respect of the catering, drinks and service, then - regardless of what your T&Cs say - you are only legally entitled to either loss of profit or costs you have already incurred.  Retaining 100% of your charge for catering, drinks and service is clearly unjustifiable and unreasonable - unless you want to argue that the charge is either all profit or all costs, which I doubt a court would accept as true.  I propose that to settle this amicably then you retain £7000 of the remaining £11675 in question, and refund the balance to us"

I think that's how I would have put to them your offer of them keeping £7000.

I'm sure some others here will think your offer over generous too.

Try putting the argument to them as above and see how they react - especially regarding that legally they can only retain loss of profits or costs already incurred - not 100% of the charge.

See what others suggest about possibly reducing the amount they retain (eg 5k?) and increasing your refund.  I think you could get more than £7k but you don't want to overdo it

@Okell
Yes, the accommodation part is confusing on a number of levels.  It's a series of log cabins and shepherds huts around the site which were chosen and paid for separately by the guests, but were refunded as a lump to the couple.  The accommodation side isn't really covered specifically in the terms - just seems to be lumped in as part of the venue costs.  Obvious potential for getting messy in situations like this and I suspect this is why the venue refunded this element easily.

The £1,000 deposit is fairly confusing too as in one place it says it's non-fundable and in another it says it's refundable in the event of the venue and accommodation being left clean and in good condition.  NO event means it not opportunity for filth and damage so......  Possibly the initial part is to cover before they've taken any other payments.

I think my offer is pretty fair too.  Your way of putting it is perhaps clearer than mine though!  I'm not actually trying to screw the venue, I'm trying to stop them screwing us.  If forced to "go legal" I may try for more, but very much prefer to settle "amicably" (both parties only moderately unhappy) if at all possible.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Catering is usually 65-70% GP. 

Gross profit is what’s left after direct cost of sales, i.e the food. 

I believe drinks are the same so at the very least OP should be entitled to 30% of the food and drink costs.

The business must mitigate its losses, if staff are not needed they should not be there, if they are there anyway their wages are not losses that stem directly from the breach (although that does increase profits).

Case law is clear that any benefits to the business must form part of the calculation for damages. 

OP rather than getting into a long winded debate on here, send a letter before action for the amount you were after and see what their response to that is. 

Templates are on Google (don’t use ChatGPT) or there are companies that will send one on your behalf for a small fee. 

If they refuse to budge you have to decide whether to go to small claims.

Burden of proof is usually on the person making the claim but I have no idea how you are supposed to provide their costs or profits so you might want professional advice. 

Renfrewman

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Catering is usually 65-70% GP. 

Gross profit is what’s left after direct cost of sales, i.e the food. 

I believe drinks are the same so at the very least OP should be entitled to 30% of the food and drink costs.

The business must mitigate its losses, if staff are not needed they should be there, if they are there anyway their wages are not losses that stem directly from the breach (although that does increase profits).

Case law is clear that any benefits to the business must form part of the calculation for damages. 

OP rather than getting into a long winded debate on here, send a letter before action for the amount you were after and see what their response to that is. 

Templates are on Google (don’t use ChatGPT) or there are companies that will send one on your behalf for a small fee. 

If they refuse to budge you have to decide whether to go to small claims.

Burden of proof is usually on the person making the claim but I have no idea how you are supposed to provide their costs or profits so you might want professional advice. 

Clearly you have never worked in hospitality

Okell

FadingGinger said:

Okell said:

@FadingGinger

OK.

AIUI the damage deposit of £1000 has been returned plus accomodation costs of £2600.  (Can I say I'm confused why you've included accommodation costs in the amount you've paid as it sounds like the guests paid those costs, not you, and it's the guests who have been refunded.  If you didn't pay the accommodation costs then by including them it muddies the waters of how much refund you are entitled to).

If I'm correct that leaves a disputed amount of £11675 made up of venue hire (£4439) plus catering drinks and service (£7236).  Yes?

You have then - rather confusingly I think - "politely proposed that they return the catering/service cost less the accommodation cost already returned..."

I think that's confusing because I don't see what the accommodation costs have to do with your refund if your guests paid them and your guests have been refunded.

By the way, I don't think your offer is a bad one - in fact I think it might be over generous - but I think it's badly phrased.

I think I'd have said:

 "OK - Even though we're just outside the 6 week deadline, we reluctantly accept we are liable for the venue hire (£4439) because it's probably too short notice for you to hire it out to anyone else.  However, in respect of the catering, drinks and service, then - regardless of what your T&Cs say - you are only legally entitled to either loss of profit or costs you have already incurred.  Retaining 100% of your charge for catering, drinks and service is clearly unjustifiable and unreasonable - unless you want to argue that the charge is either all profit or all costs, which I doubt a court would accept as true.  I propose that to settle this amicably then you retain £7000 of the remaining £11675 in question, and refund the balance to us"

I think that's how I would have put to them your offer of them keeping £7000.

I'm sure some others here will think your offer over generous too.

Try putting the argument to them as above and see how they react - especially regarding that legally they can only retain loss of profits or costs already incurred - not 100% of the charge.

See what others suggest about possibly reducing the amount they retain (eg 5k?) and increasing your refund.  I think you could get more than £7k but you don't want to overdo it

@Okell
Yes, the accommodation part is confusing on a number of levels.  It's a series of log cabins and shepherds huts around the site which were chosen and paid for separately by the guests, but were refunded as a lump to the couple.  The accommodation side isn't really covered specifically in the terms - just seems to be lumped in as part of the venue costs.  Obvious potential for getting messy in situations like this and I suspect this is why the venue refunded this element easily...

I think the damage deposit doesn't come into it.  It should be refunded.

Accommodation might be more tricky.  The guests paid for it but the venue has refunded you?

I would have said that the accommodation was an issue solely between the venue and the guests, and that whether that cost was refundable to the guests after the wedding was cancelled depended on what the T&Cs of their individual bookings were.

I don't understand why the venue has refunded you rather than the guests.  Are they expecting you to refund the guests on their behalf or are they expecting you to keep that as part of your refund? Is that what you meant by saying "though they made a big fuss about how generous they were being"?

And is this accommodation that is available for booking by anyone, or is it specifically for guests of weddings at the venue?  If the latter then there might be an argument that they can't rebook it at short notice - just like the venue generally.

Hmmm.

Best bet might be to do just what the_lunatic has suggested - come up with a figure you are looking for and if you can't come to an agreement with them, send a letter before action.

(My only caveat now is that the accommodation might be morecomplicated than it needed to be.  If the accommodation is intrinsically linked to the wedding function of the venue, then perhaps it shouldn't be refunded at all.  What a mess.)

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Renfrewman said:

Clearly you have never worked in hospitality

You'd be surprised. 

What % do you think GP is then? 

sheramber

FadingGinger said:

Okell said:

FadingGinger said:

How am I bad mouthing them?  I have been careful not to.

... Their terms say nothing at all about compensating us were they to cancel.  They don't even explicitly state they'll return payments already received though it is implied,they just they they don't expect to cancell and if they do it will be for a good reason!...

Don't their terms say anything about them cancelling the contract?  Or about them refunding payments already made if they cancel?

What exactly do their cancellation terms say - whether cancellation by them or by your son?

Unless they are balanced between the two parties, they could be unfair and therefore unenforceable.

Hi Okell,
I quote below.  In fact they expressly absolve themselves of any consequential losses should they cancel.

"Cancellation by us

We do not expect to have to make any changes to your booking

but problems may occur resulting in bookings having to be

cancelled.

We would only cancel your booking if the venue was:

a) Unavailable or unsafe for reasons beyond our reasonable

control; for example severe flooding, fire, damage to the

property (this list is not intended to be finite).

In such instance we would offer you a full refund of

monies you have paid towards your Event. We would not

be held responsible for any additional costs incurred by

yourselves. (my bold)

b) If the booking might prejudice the reputation of the venue

and business.

c) If the client has made no attempt to achieve full payment

six weeks prior to the event. In which case the client

would forfeit their deposit."

and

"Cancellation by you

a) If you wish to cancel your booking, the Hirer should contact

us by telephone as soon as possible, and follow up with

written confirmation.

b) The deposit of £1000 is NON-REFUNDABLE upon

cancellation.

We reserve the right to make a full charge of the total balance

of your event for any cancellation within 6 weeks of the event

date. This includes all service charges, catering and beverage

costs. In addition to the deposit paid.

The following will be charged on cancelation if within 12 months

of the event date:

Cancellation 12 months prior: 25% of venue hire

9 months prior: 50% of venue hire

6 months prior: 75% of venue hire

3 months prior: 100% of venue hire

6 weeks prior the total balance of your event.

Thank you for your interest

Nick

If they cancel they refund all you have paid but they will not pay for any additional costs you have.

These would be wedding dresses, bouquets, wedding cars etc

Grumpy_chap

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Catering is usually 65-70% GP. 

That aligns with the rule of thirds I referenced upthtread.

mybestattempt

If forced to "go legal" I may try for more, but very much prefer to settle "amicably" (both parties only moderately unhappy) if at all possible.

@FadingGinger

My understanding from your opening post is that you are not a party to the contract with the venue, as it was signed by your son and his former fiancee.

In addition, although you had gifted money to your son and his former fiancee as a contribution towards the cost of the planned, then cancelled, wedding they made the actual payment to the venue.

At the moment you appear to be trying to obtain a refund on behalf of your son and his former fiancee.

While I understand your deep unhappiness and I have no wish to be unkind, I don't believe you personally can "go legal" on this.