EON Next have removed Next Drive tariffs for battery only customers.

MattMattMattUK

Chrysalis said:

MWT said:

None of those offer a dependable load, they only work as long as you have somewhere to put the heat...

A half-empty EV with a 64kWh battery means they can depend on being able to deliver 30kWh+ for example.

Multiply that by a few thousand and you have a dependable, controllable energy sink. 

A EV not being depleted, parked up for weeks on end, where does the charge go?

The thing with the smart tariffs is the supplier can see exactly how much charge is in the EV so they know across the several hundred thousand they have in different regions exactly what kind of energy sink they have available. They will buy cheap energy to fill that sink as and when it is available. Now some EVs might barely go anywhere for weeks at a time and some might get driven 200+ miles every day, so across all their customers they have a substantial pot of predictable energy usage. 

I even get occasional messages from Octopus saying that if I do not plug in on X day, then I will get all my charging free then following day, they know that there will be a high overnight price one day but likely a negative price the next day so they give me that option. I can still plug in and pay my normal rate and they will deal with that, but everyone gains if they can flexibly charge the following day.

Chrysalis said:

I get the point anyway, not trying be awkwardly argumentative here, just I think there is scope for expanding the use cases. Thank you.to yourself and QrizB for explaining the extra details

There is a case for expanding the scope, which is what suppliers have been doing. It is why Octopus have smart tariffs for EVs, heat pumps, storage heaters, battery storage (trialing at the moment), as well as looking at more complete integration long term, so houses with battery, heat pump, storage heaters and EV can charge, store heat and discharge on a fully smart basis controlled by the supplier.

Qyburn

Not disputing any of the points about smart controlled charging, but several suppliers offer fixed EV tariffs that simply give cheap power at fixed times of day. In fact the actual tariff discussed here, Eon Next Drive is one of those.

MWT

Qyburn said:

Not disputing any of the points about smart controlled charging, but several suppliers offer fixed EV tariffs that simply give cheap power at fixed times of day. In fact the actual tariff discussed here, Eon Next Drive is one of those.

Indeed, and that is how Octopus started with the original 'Octopus Go' which is of course still available. 

The Intelligent tariffs give Octopus the potential to participate meaningfully in grid balancing, other suppliers may not be ready for that yet but are likely aiming in that direction. 

theoldmiser

QrizB said:

Chrysalis said:

It shouldnt matter what the energy is used on as long as its deemed consumer use.  Yet for the suppliers for some reason it matters.

It matters for demand management.

There.are times when there is a surplus of electricity that is available at low (or negative) cost. If a supplier is able to "switch on" loads, they can make use of this surplus.

Suppliers can't come into your house and switch on your kettle, but (tthanks to smart meters and smart tariffs) they can tell your EV to charge or your storage heaters to warm up.

Hence smart tariffs for EVs and storage heaters can be offered at a lower cost than dumb tariffs.

Can they tell your storage heaters to heat up? Only recent models, I presume. My old house had storage heaters and they were dumb as could be - they were on a separate electrical circuit, which turned on at the start of the Economy 7 and went off at the end of it, no control whatsoever from the electricity company.

theoldmiser

QrizB said:

If you only need to draw from the mains supply during cheap rate hours, take a look at Utility Warehouse's E7 rates.

They're currently offering me:

Unit rate (day): 39.222p per kWh
Unit rate (night): 6.159p per kWh
Daily standing charge: 44.645p
Exit fee: £0.00

Do you have a link to that tariff on the Utility Warehouse website? I can't find anything E7 related at all on there.

Scot_39

theoldmiser said:

QrizB said:

Chrysalis said:

It shouldnt matter what the energy is used on as long as its deemed consumer use.  Yet for the suppliers for some reason it matters.

It matters for demand management.

There.are times when there is a surplus of electricity that is available at low (or negative) cost. If a supplier is able to "switch on" loads, they can make use of this surplus.

Suppliers can't come into your house and switch on your kettle, but (tthanks to smart meters and smart tariffs) they can tell your EV to charge or your storage heaters to warm up.

Hence smart tariffs for EVs and storage heaters can be offered at a lower cost than dumb tariffs.

Can they tell your storage heaters to heat up? Only recent models, I presume. My old house had storage heaters and they were dumb as could be - they were on a separate electrical circuit, which turned on at the start of the Economy 7 and went off at the end of it, no control whatsoever from the electricity company.

E7 restricted feed was the control.  There was however no real thermal control - that came down to user setting - to accept or restrict the amount of 7 hours charge taken.

Snug Octopus - specifically designed for NSH users - now does the switching dynamically on the restricted feed - and although they operate a core 6 hours off peak - users can also select fewer max hours - in order to control costs.

In the original launch documentation - there was also talk of choosing a time for that to end within the window iirc (although not sure that made it into the final operation).   I suspect most would have chosen 0630 say - so maybe they dropped it to keep more flexibility.

It also gives one hour in the afternoon.

It is if you like the first smart tariff for older NSH heaters like mine (still as built) - but only in terms of controlling restricted supply - their is no say room temperature type automation involved to change the fundemental nature of the control on older heaters.

And although it should work with more modern smarter heaters - care would need to be taken re restricting charge times with any on heater timer settings on the more modern storage heaters.

Users who have say selected 2.5 hrs for instance  - have produced half hourly data charts from their meters suggesting the heaters switching on / off across 1/2 hourly intervals throughout the 6 hour window.

In the past companies like EDF and Ovo have done dynamic switching as well - via internet and RF control hubs on Quantums iirc - using third party management software e.g..  

https://company.ovo.com/ovo-and-glen-dimplex-heating-ventilation-announce-partnership-to-drive-the-decarbonisation-of-heating/

Not sure how dynamic - if at all - the new BG Quantum tariff was - but it certainly had possibilities - and needed the RF hub iirc. It certainly talked about optimising the charge times  

https://www.dimplex.co.uk/sites/g/files/emiian551/files/2024-02/BG Dimplex Quantum A5 update 2024.pdf

"This is also the connection that makes it possible to see when you have space
to store cheap electricity, allowing British Gas to charge your heaters and save
you money"

The Quantum manuals still have reference to dynamic switching control operation - but a bit short on detail - just a one liner iirc.

Swipe

theoldmiser said:

QrizB said:

If you only need to draw from the mains supply during cheap rate hours, take a look at Utility Warehouse's E7 rates.

They're currently offering me:

Unit rate (day): 39.222p per kWh
Unit rate (night): 6.159p per kWh
Daily standing charge: 44.645p
Exit fee: £0.00

Do you have a link to that tariff on the Utility Warehouse website? I can't find anything E7 related at all on there.

You need to press the 'get a quote' button and input your data.