Pension, Final Salary - My Brain Hurts!

bombproof

Marcon said:

xylophone said:

That is where he started

already suggested 

I had read your previous very pertinent contributions.....the smiley was mildly ironic...... 

Sorry - I was just pleased to see someone else encouraging OP to opt for an adviser who really knows the scheme. I don't understand why they would do otherwise, especially when the TPS is notorious for its complexity.

   Hell yeh notorious for its complexity, I would have discovered this 3 years ago but didnt even know to look apart from asking my Union if it was important or not. Who knew?

hugheskevi

bombproof said:

Marcon said:

DRS1 said:

In addition to the above, once you become entitled to receive your pension at your NPA, providing you are opted out of the Teachers' Pension Scheme, any period of opted in service following this will be treated as Additional Service After Retirement (ASAR).

That sounds like a health warning.  Better explore what it means.

There's considerable irony in the fact that the country's best gold-plated defined benefit schemes for public sector workers are so ridiculously complicated that far from seeing them as the massive benefit they are, people like OP are furious and frustrated and blaming everyone and anyone they can think of for their (entirely understandable) confusion.

A good first step for OP would be to use an adviser who fully understands the scheme. What makes someone who has apparently admitted that they can't work out what's going on 'really good' and a suitable choice to advise on TPS? Hopefully OP will see the light and seek advice from someone who can provide accurate and well informed advice based on extensive knowledge of the TPS, which will be far better for their financial health (and peace of mind).

Kind of true, however is has now become glaringly apparent that TPS phone advisors don`t know .. (or cannot explain) their own scheme with any kind of consistency.

I think the standard training time of brand new recruits to get on to phones in schemes is usually something like two weeks. 

The better administrators have clearly routed queries based on what the member selects, eg, new recruits get to deal with basic things like address queries. As their experience grows the calls they get will be more difficult. However, as experience grows, administrators will be taken off phones and set on more complicated functions.

It is therefore usually pointless calling with even a modestly difficult question. These need careful consideration, sometimes including looking at the individual member record. It will need input from senior administrators, so you need to email or submit tickets, not keep calling to speak to people. That also helps set out all the details in the query, which is difficult in a phonecall.

The same applies to most companies and organisations usually - phone for routine things, other channels for more complicated or unusual things.

bombproof

DRS1 said:

xylophone said:

A good first step for OP would be to use an adviser who fully understands the scheme.

Wesleyan........?

https://www.wesleyan.co.uk/pensions-and-retirement/teachers-pension

The Teachers’ Pension Scheme (TPS) offers great benefits to hard-working educators across the UK, but it isn’t the easiest to understand. Through our specialist guides, you can get help with your pension and retirement planning.

That is where he started and who warned him about the pension he has been missing out on.

This is true and a fair point.  Wesleyan happened to be the first advisors I asked  (i had others booked who may be equally cognisant of this) after  call that I  immediately got side-lined into finding out about this potential lost money and thought (naively) I would talk directly with TP, subsequently getting 2 opposing answers within 2 hours of the same aftenroon ... you might understand why it confused the hell out of me?

bombproof

Marcon said:

xylophone said:

To be fair to the OP,  I have to say that when I was young (ah, the dear dead days...) and started employment offering a DB pension, I didn't give it any thought - it was just there....and when I changed employer, it was the Administrator of my new DB Scheme who made contact with me to ask if I wanted to transfer in the benefits from my former scheme - I'm sure I wouldn't have even thought of it!

I have huge sympathy for OP - and any number of other people who are totally at sea in the absurdly complex world of pensions. It was of course made far more complicated by Pensions Simplification - remember that...?

But using an adviser who doesn't seem to have any familiarity with the TPS, and from what OP has reported appears to have made no attempt to seek out and read the regulations - the definitive statement of the position - baffles me. I'm surprised that a teacher, of all people, does not see the merit of using a 'subject specialist'.

It's human nature to warm to someone who endorses your own views and perceptions, but surely the priority here isn't to demonstrate how many others are in the same boat, but to get out of that boat in the most financially advantageous way possible. That's easier said than done when the person you are most cross with is yourself!

I hear what you are saying,  but am nowhere near as suggestible as is being inferred.
So in spite of the criticism for taking advice from this Chartered Financial 5 star  9/10 award winning advisor guy  who gave me a free 1.5 hour consultancy..... pretty good going IMO. (I only  actually started looking at this as I need to update my will after a family bereavement). 

I am a good judge of character this guy was not bullshitting and he honed his advice with care for my  specific situation (NB. most of which I have not shared on here)  he looked at the WHOLE of my situation  
(ie not just this one specific item of this back dated arrears I am discussing on here). He did not pretend to know about this TP advice and healthily did not claim to know so immediately sought advice. Good man.

His advice was really VERY  practical useful indeed from a holistic viewpoint and in laymans terms (exactly what i needed!  ....  I am Mortgage free, savings, ISAs  no heirs etc...

He essentially said I dont actually need a financial advisor per se and am pretty water tight, no snake oil,  claim pension  quick, consider sticking lump sum in an ISA)   No need for complex `investment opps` at my low risk personality.

As a result he has has enabled me to pretty much fully plan now. 
Wesleyan did give me one valuable nugget for free (about this  particular issue) I took that and am running with it on here and elsewhere.  ie. with only this 3 years unclaimed TPS bit left unclear,
Yes  sure I am annoyed (wouldnt you be?)  but just about this only and  TP: yes, no yes, no....?;  fart in a collander So I will pursue  this bit until I personally understand it and will either get some money back or not.  (and still really appreciate all your help xx)
So although annoyed and feeling slightly pee-ed off through simple ignorance that it was something I should be even looking for  (life has been complex last few years)   
However am stoic about it and accept any loss ... (or not loss, still unclear).
Essentially the rest is looking decent, So all much less opaque than a week ago, except for this one PITA anomaly!

bombproof

hugheskevi said:

bombproof said:

Marcon said:

DRS1 said:

In addition to the above, once you become entitled to receive your pension at your NPA, providing you are opted out of the Teachers' Pension Scheme, any period of opted in service following this will be treated as Additional Service After Retirement (ASAR).

That sounds like a health warning.  Better explore what it means.

There's considerable irony in the fact that the country's best gold-plated defined benefit schemes for public sector workers are so ridiculously complicated that far from seeing them as the massive benefit they are, people like OP are furious and frustrated and blaming everyone and anyone they can think of for their (entirely understandable) confusion.

A good first step for OP would be to use an adviser who fully understands the scheme. What makes someone who has apparently admitted that they can't work out what's going on 'really good' and a suitable choice to advise on TPS? Hopefully OP will see the light and seek advice from someone who can provide accurate and well informed advice based on extensive knowledge of the TPS, which will be far better for their financial health (and peace of mind).

Kind of true, however is has now become glaringly apparent that TPS phone advisors don`t know .. (or cannot explain) their own scheme with any kind of consistency.

I think the standard training time of brand new recruits to get on to phones in schemes is usually something like two weeks. 

The better administrators have clearly routed queries based on what the member selects, eg, new recruits get to deal with basic things like address queries. As their experience grows the calls they get will be more difficult. However, as experience grows, administrators will be taken off phones and set on more complicated functions.

It is therefore usually pointless calling with even a modestly difficult question. These need careful consideration, sometimes including looking at the individual member record. It will need input from senior administrators, so you need to email or submit tickets, not keep calling to speak to people. That also helps set out all the details in the query, which is difficult in a phonecall.

The same applies to most companies and organisations usually - phone for routine things, other channels for more complicated or unusual things.

Yeh hugheskevi, I think you are spot on... but has taken a few calls to discover this.  Aside of this TP ping pong my financial guy meeting has given me the best advice of all, feeling pretty confident to do it myself now (and still push about this other issue)

Marcon

If you liked the adviser and you were happy with what you were told, fine - but please realise why some of us were so concerned by what you said. Remember that people here can only base their responses on the information you have chosen to post - and it was this post that was worrying, especially as this whole thread has quite specifically centred on your TPS benefits:

bombproof said:

I met a really good Financial advisor this a.m. (V. helpful gent) and he  was all over the TP website looking at all the Docs and He too couldn`t figure out what the hell was going on either! 


My guy understood `why` TPS and the Govt (who pay)  wish to maintain a cloud of `mystery` about this  potential pay-out ...........as do not want us all cashing in...... so  hence do not broadcast/advertise this widely (at all?)  And that it is obviously spread  only by word of mouth. 

You described as 'really good' an adviser who, on the basis of what you posted:

• admitted he didn't understand the scheme and seemed to think a wander on the TPS website/giving them a a call would soon sort out what he should quickly have realised was anything but a simple question
• spouted a truly absurd conspiracy theory, which you seem to have swallowed, judging by your comment that he 'understood why...'. Far from 'all of [you]' cashing in, it would only affect members whose circumstances meant they were impacted by the relevant Regulations (which can be accessed online - not a job for the faint hearted, so I'd expect it to be advisers and not members who make it their bedtime reading - but hardly a 'mystery' which relies on word of mouth). For a scheme where liabilities are measured in billions of pounds, what could be hugely significant for some individual members is a fleabite in the overall scheme of things - and it's the lucky old taxpayers, not the Government, who foot the bill 
• 'He also suggested that TP should have this with flashing lights on their site for all who are turning 60 and it is remiss of them not to.  He was also in agreement  with me that my Union NEU should have had it in flashing lights or sent us a `heads up` at 60 !!!!!!! they are meant to look after members as a duty of care surely? (I am fuming with them and their `oooh its not our role to advise` their attitude has been snotty and defensive too...  NEU have lost a life-time member now I am changing Union) AND furthermore  he also agreed that my School itself should have given me a heads up at 60 (in spite of having a revolving door of HR and finance managers).' But it doesn't apply to all who are turning 60 - so far from being 'remiss', it would create even more confusion - ditto if your union had gone the neon light route for all members hitting 60. There is a very real danger that had your school stuck its oar in, two things might have followed: your resignation (maybe - but probably not something you or they would have welcomed); and an allegation from an aggrieved teacher that they were misinformed or given 'financial advice' by a party not authorised to to give it. What are the chances of a school having anyone in house with the necessary expertise to answer detailed questions from staff who will inevitably have very different employment/scheme membership histories? Book a season ticket to the Pensions Ombudsman now...
  

But...the points you've raised, and your strong emotional reaction to them (who wouldn't in your shoes - there must be many other teachers who are just as distressed and hopelessly lost), both highlight the need for something constructive to be done. As a starting point, I'd be campaigning for TPS/unions/schools to have a carefully worded general health warning for teachers who are coming up for (say) age 55 to take action in good time to ensure they understand their options, and recommending they approach an independent financial adviser who has detailed knowledge of the scheme if they need personal assistance. I'm sure there are miles better wordings, but you'll get the gist of what I have in mind.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, MoneyBox had an item about TPS last week: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002k3b9

Why not contact Paul Lewis (details on the link I've given) and refer him to this thread, especially the post from @hugheskevi on 28 September, and see if he'd be willing to give the idea publicity on his programme or in some other way?

Purplelady65

I’m hoping you are already aware of this but if you’re planning on accessing your pension and want to continue working my understanding is that you will either need a break in service so you can retire and return or opt for phased retirement where you don’t have a break in service but will reduce your earnings by 20% for 1 year. Both options require your employer to agree to this so hopefully you are having conversations with them about this (unless you are planning on full retirement and not continuing to work). 

I appreciate your frustration re what you consider to be a lack of communication from anyone about accessing your pension. In my experience working in the public sector the responsibility is very much on the individual to find out about their pension. It can also be difficult to get information that is easy to understand for workers who don’t know anything about pensions which adds annother layer of complication.  Also not everyone who is a teacher is in a pension scheme. It’s unusual but I have met a couple of teachers who were struggling with mortgage payments, childcare etc and had left the pension scheme.

I work in the NHS and a significant proportion of the workforce are not actually in the pension scheme. Probably similar to teaching not many people working in the NHS and who are in the pension scheme really understand their pension. We have set up a whole range of financial education workshops for staff including pension planning, how the NHS pension works,  the McCloud remedy etc with a company called Affinity Connect.  They have been really popular and the feedback has been really positive. Would your school / academy consider running something similar? It might not be much help to you but could help others? 

xylophone

Some years back I accompanied relatives to seminars offered by DB FS Scheme administrators to members of the scheme  who were going to retire in the near future.

In both cases though, there were no "sections" and NRA was 60.

It’s unusual but I have met a couple of teachers who were struggling with mortgage payments, childcare etc and had left the pension scheme.

This always makes me shiver - I well remember an acquaintance with toddler and new born whose husband died in a freak accident -

mercifully her grief was not compounded by financial stress as her late husband was a member of his LGPS.

bombproof

Ok all, I have been in silent the last couple of weeks on here while I have been sorting everything out.
I am about to tie up my conversation on here and move on.
I would  once more like to sincerely thank all the genuine contributions and (very) kind attempts to guide  and advise me posted on here (and also flip the bird to the  couple of sarc`ey unhelpful commentators ....so a single impudent digit with swivel to those one or two.
There is so much expertise here on MSE it is amazing what we can do `off grid` and on our own with a bit of kindness and care. Big up to MSE once again. 

So where am I at? 

I have accepted loss of  nearly £30k  for 3 years unclaimed un-back-dateable pension due to zero communication from TP, School and NEU. And my own ignorance for not owning a crystal ball to  scry that taking my pension at 60 even while working would be a good thing.. Ce la vie...
My local MP has been informed about this (as there are many of us nationwide who have suffered this and lost 10s of thousands of pounds... It does not feel like `natural law`) and I have received her reply from HoP her team is looking into it.

I have ditched my Union  of 20 years NEU after a  couple of snotty and un-empathic replies from them, I have joined another Teaching union.

I have taken a break in service at work  and have applied for my final salary Pension .... and continue to work 3 days/week. plan to continue until State retirement age (If I feel like it) 

I have myself discovered  via phone (ie not been informed by TP..... again) that my TP pension and lumps sum could take  an indeterminate 4-6 months to come through but that they  (Capita) truly care about me (ha ha!) However upon MY enquiry (ie not been informed by TP yet again) I discover that I will be affected by the ongoing HMRC court case about Transitional pensioners and got the nebulous response that I will also have to wait for that too before I get the money I have saved..   so who knows, could be a year! (I guess you all know the present ongoing farrago at TP about retirees lives being messed up by delays in payments) ... feel lucky I am still working... and am not going to let it drag me down.

In spite of 2-3 cynical responses on here My local lifestyle financial advisor gave me 90 minutes FREE excellent advice  and confidence (without trying to sell me anything) that I am fairly bombproof pension wise (not rich but OK) he calculated this in his head and with  calculator a pen and paper he said he did not understand the TP scheme (who does .. def not TP) which was healthy IMO. As this was not a proper paid consultation he would not crunch the numbers precisely but gave me an excellent outline ... Which was exactly what I needed!
He went on to say not to worry t all as now I have claimed my TP  this is cast iron (when I finally get paid) and then when I get State pension all is good. 
 I appreciate your concerns above but honestly.. I am no mug he was highly recommended buy a judge friend of mine is obviously extremely experienced and furthermore independent (more so than the Wesleyan guy imho)  he had nothing to gain. 
He also kindly gave me a book (Paul D Armson`s excellent and lucid book: Enough? How much money do you need for the rest of your life) which I read in a day.  Lifestyle finance seems a very logical way to live and plan) Read it.    https://amzn.eu/d/g6h9gfF

Just to do belt and braces I paid £360 for an online meeting with  a Wesleyan  chap (Who are obvs not independent) who essentially told me exactly the same thing but crunched the numbers in a computer program ( a copy of which I still have not received) and showed me the same. (He modelled prospective futures and showed me graphs showing how  well Wesleyan investments  do and how these products work and  how they would get me more money).

 Unfortunately I discovered that Wesleyan who are considered respectable and I am sure that they are as they carry  Methodist founder John Wesleys name  however they (for me) do not presently provide a satisfactory ethical investment product as  their investment schemes are in stocks and shares of big Pharma, Oil, Alphabet and numerous other giants who I am not comfortable investing in.
Interesting old thread too I have  just started to read: .. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5587585/weslyan/p1

However the clarity of my FREE and INDEPENDENT local advisor  who was advocating `Lifestyle finance` and the `enough` book have  clarified my previous personal goals into potential reality (I just needed confidence that I was on target)  knowing this (and being told the same in my Wesleyan consultation) have channelled my perspective into a very positive one.
I am just letting TPS do their thing slowly and incompetently and will simply be patient. 
 I will set up another pension to get the Govts % tax relief thing  on savings I put into that.
So its been a wild ride with TPs (and it is not over yet ha ha.)   But I am feeling very positive.   THANKYOU THANKYOU THANKYOU for helping.

bombproof

                                                                IMPORTANT POST SCRIPT !!!! 


The final salary pension of £9.9k p/a/  ie. pension scheme I did not join or claim for at 60 and was lost forever.
[I was told repeatedly contradictory explanations over 6x different TP phone conversations and  NB. I was told this in the first instance by my Wesleyan TP expert advisor! ]

                               IS ACTUALLY BACKDATED TO 60 AND  PAID IN AREARS AFTER ALL !

This was explained on the phone this morning that it is purely because
TP will not inform you of this UNTIL after the FINAL AWARD STATEMENT  is made.....  who knew?

[If this is actually correct  (if... TBC!)  this feels like a  wholly inconsiderate negligence of duty of care to explain to service users clearly in Plain English by TP]

-So potentially all this stress and anxiety  may have been totally unnecessary  -
(Stress that myself and obviously many other teachers have/are being made to go through thinking they have lost Thousands)      
           
 So I was just now told (on the 7th phone conversation with TP) that I should receive £29.9k backdated to me from turning 60 after all.... 

However after this crazy roller-coaster ride I will only believe it when it is in my bank account!...
Unbelievable.