Private Road, Abandoned Car, SORN and ownership query

Titus_Wadd

I live on a small new estate, the roads are private and won't be adopted by the council.  Five years ago a nuisance neighbour dumped a derelict car on the estate road to be a PitA. The car was SORN with DVLA and the neighbour acquired it in 2020.  The registered keeper has not been updated since the original owner SORNed it. If I outline the legal position I think as I understand it, could anyone clarify for me?

• A SORN car cannot legally be kept on a road, however is that true of unadopted roads if they form part of the "highway" or does it hold true for all roads?
• An untaxed car similarly shouldn't be on a road; but does that apply to a private road?
• The SORN owner denied ownership in 2021 when asked about the car by the Council.
• The SORN isn't transferable, so ends if the vehicle's "ownership" changes.
• For 4+ years Police & Council maintain the PitA neighbour took ownership of  the car, but now seem to be waivering: that it has no owner.  How does the "ownership" registered at DVLA get trumped by someone saying "It's mine, officer"? [I'll try that next time I go joy-riding].
• I believe that if it has no owner it's "abandoned" and the council has duty and power to remove it, without notice because it is on a road (includes private roads) BUT If the neighbour is deemed to be the new "owner" then the car lost its SORN status on transfer of owner. This would mean the car is untaxed, no MOT, no insurance...but would that then fall under the Police's remit to tow it and DVLA issue fine to the alleged new owner?
• We have been asking Police and Council for help for 5 years but neither can decide what can be done..the latest gambit to avoid acting is that the "new owner" might have "Legal Authority" to leave his car on this private road and advised us to consult a solicitor (again).  Our lawyer queried the council interpretation on "legal authority" suggesting that they were conflating it with "permission to abandon a car on the road", which isn't a thing!  [The solicitor considered that possibly a more specific "legal authority" might derive e.g. from a council issuing a licence to run a scrap metal business, but the Act re abandoned vehicles being removed by the council, does not expressly define the phrase "without legal authority"]. The council's legal bod seemed somewhat peeved that we followed his advice and spoke to a lawyer, then refused to speak with us further.

Sorry it's a long saga to read, it's been a long long saga for us.  In that time we've had two complaints to the local government ombudsman upheld, but the LGO can't force the council to act.  Still the council and local police force seem incapable of settling on whether the car even has a legal owner when there's been no registered keeper updated for 5 years.  The car is a rusty shell, all tyres flat, mouldy on the inside and hasn't moved since 2020, so I think it meets the criteria for "appears abandoned" for the purposes of the relevant legislation.
I'm at the end of my tether, victimised by the ineptitude of the authorities who should deal with this.  What rules apply to private/ unadopted roads? Please help?

paul_c123

You mention ownership a lot. But there is no official register of car ownership. Only registered keeper.

user1977

Why don't the owners of the private road sort it out themselves?

Titus_Wadd

Hi thanks for responding. I guess the difference is the neighbour who dumped the car has never registered as its keeper with DVLA, but "has control of it" in the sense of being the last person with keys and last drove it in November 2020 to dump it where it still sits today, and probably has the keys.  I don't know what legally constitutes "ownership" but, until recently Council and Police maintained the neighbour "owned" it, hence my use of the word.  The police don't seem bothered whether or not the registration was transfered when the SORN owner handed it the neighbour.  In recent weeks the police have altered their stance, saying it has no owner, but can't or won't expand on this change of perception.  The council seems unable to tell whether or not the car has an owner, despite speaking to the last DVLA regd keeper, who denied ownership.
Is there a legal definition of car ownership?  Is it closer to being "responsible for" rather than ownership?  Why are the two authorities hung up on this?
Am I right in thinking the SORN status is linked with/ dependant on the continuity of registered keeper on DVLA records?  If that "ownership" / " registered keeper status" changes,  then the SORN ends?
Can the new status become altered to something akin to "unregistered" by the old owner disowning it? And would that result in the car changing from SORN to untaxed?  Would this state support the categorisation of the car as "abandoned"? 

Does it even matter since neither status has tax paid?  

After that's established...does it even matter if the road isn't council owned for the purposes of determining whether or not the untaxed car parked on it has broken any VERA offences? 

With an increasing number of new build estates having no roads in council ownership is there a definitive intention for all these unadopted roads to still be subject to the car tax provisions because the police and council local to me don't know or haven't sought legal guidance to explain it to me in 5 years. 

[Trying really hard not to be the hysterical victim, but I'm really struggling and have a meeting with a Chief Inspector and Council legal counsel this week and I'm trying to tighten up my understanding because my mental health advocate can't accompany me and I'm feeling bamboozled.  As much as I try to stay focused and accurately cite the correct government guidance or statute at meetings, these bodies won't respond in kind and support their vacillating viewpoints with sources or precedent. 
I can't afford to lawyer-up even though I legal protection which has been a Godsend for other matters involving this odious neighbour.  I don't think even having a victim support volunteer with me would be met with anything but suspicion and @rse-covering.  Just for background, we have had half-@rsed attempts at antisocial behaviour remedies, charges of assault and criminal damage offences against us and currently ongoing investigation by police of harassment and cyber-bullying by other members of the same family with no improvement to our circumstances yet.]  But I digress... 

I suppose I want to find out whether it even matters whether a SORN or untaxed car can "lawfully" in be kept on a private road.  Sorry if the terminology used isn't exactly right, hope you catch my drift?  DVLA kindly told me 4 years ago the car only has to "appear" abandoned for the council remedy to kick-in, but neither body will confirm whether or not it's abandoned  so that's why I'm hoping to use its lack of taxed status as an alternative remedy?  Honestly, the amount of public money being spent to justify taking no action has been shocking.

Titus_Wadd

user1977 said:

Why don't the owners of the private road sort it out themselves?

That's a sound question, but they won't deal with it and it isn't causing us enough blockage to our access, although we might discuss civil action via legal protection again if all else fails.  But the remedies are there for the police and/or council to act and offer us some relief.
I find it really odd that both authorities still engage with us as though they are implementing  some covert action plan.  After 5 years they still can't answer whether it's a road, who the car belongs to, whether it's untaxed status is relevant - these all seem to be facts available from DVLA & HMLR and the highways authority at the County Council.  But then they seem not able to expand on what potential remedies they have in mind: whether these fact, once known, will lead on to some action?  

paul_c123

I suspect the authorities don't want to touch it because in some way it sets a precedent for whether that road is maintained by the council. Eg fly tipping, pot holes. So they've decided its a private road; and the rules of SORN are you can store it on a private road, and don't need road tax. If its a shared road, the 'owner' has a right to use it to store a car.

If its genuinely an obstruction ie bin lorries or a fire engine can't get through, you all need to get together and agree for some appropriate action, eg it gets shifted directly to a place it won't obstruct. That might be the 'owners' driveway.

laidbackgjr

You need to be very clear on the road ownership and rights, but if it's genuine private land then only the owner can do anything about it, stop wasting police and council time and get the landowner to deal with it.

Mildly_Miffed

Titus_Wadd said:

I guess the difference is the neighbour who dumped the car has never registered as its keeper with DVLA

So who is the registered keeper? They're the one any action has to be against. If they've said "But I sold it on this date in 2020, and it's no longer my responsibility since that date", then it's keeperless, and abandoned.

I don't know what legally constitutes "ownership"

VERY few things in UK life have formally registered owners. Real estate and shares in companies, and that's about it.

In recent weeks the police have altered their stance, saying it has no owner, but can't or won't expand on this change of perception.  The council seems unable to tell whether or not the car has an owner, despite speaking to the last DVLA regd keeper, who denied ownership.

As I suggested above.

Is there a legal definition of car ownership?

No.

Is it closer to being "responsible for" rather than ownership?

Yes, the registered keeper, the person whose name is on the V5C.

Why are the two authorities hung up on this?

Because they're the person legally responsible for it.

Am I right in thinking the SORN status is linked with/ dependant on the continuity of registered keeper on DVLA records?  If that "ownership" / " registered keeper status" changes,  then the SORN ends?

Yes.

Can the new status become altered to something akin to "unregistered" by the old owner disowning it?

Yes. It frequently happens with cars confiscated from scrotes.

Would this state support the categorisation of the car as "abandoned"?

Yes.

Does it even matter since neither status has tax paid?

No. It's also uninsured and has no MOT. I suspect it's also unroadworthy. They have actual real-world consequences, unlike merely the tax being unpaid.

After that's established...does it even matter if the road isn't council owned for the purposes of determining whether or not the untaxed car parked on it has broken any VERA offences?

Yes.
The question here is one of responsibility.

The car should not be there, but it is not the council or the police's responsibility to remove it. It's the landowner's. So the landowner needs to get on with it...

If this is a management company, you need to up the hassle on them to do their job.

But I digress... 

I suppose I want to find out whether it even matters whether a SORN or untaxed car can "lawfully" in be kept on a private road.

If the road is accessible to the public, as a normal part of the highway network, it can't be.

user1977

What in practice do scrappies need in order to be persuaded to take away an abandoned car on a private road?

Titus_Wadd

Thank you.  The Council has previously quoted all manner of reasons why they can't or won't act and I think you're right that they have never removed a derelict car from an unadopted road before.  We actually suggested they move or ask the neighbour to move it to his drive but told me they could be charged with theft!  IANAL but I asked whether they meant a tort - should they disposed of it then the neighbour asked for it back?  I know no one likes a smart@rse but I'd expect better from the Council's solicitor. 🤔
Cheers, I think it's done me good to collect my thoughts a bit.  I do feel slightly intimidated at these meetings and can't help thinking, as you say, that the decision not to act was fixed long ago but they haven't expressed their thought process very well.   
Part of my road is definitely part of the highway network.  The County Council agrees since it has speed limit signs and is used as a cut through by traffic avoiding two big A road roundabout snarĺ-up points. The CC recognises it's  part of the road network however, because our few homes are effectively on a small spur off the same road the "rules of the road" don't apply outside my home.  I think this might become an issue on new estates if some roads are unadopted, but public rights of way and subject to traffic laws, but if you live in a cul-de-sac on that estate, they don't.
I'll report back if they come up with a new approach...or if we ever get a solution.  I wouldn't live on a private road again though!  

Titus_Wadd

user1977 said:

What in practice do scrappies need in order to be persuaded to take away an abandoned car on a private road?

Trust me, I'm tempted to offer it free to a good home on Facebook but the neighbour is very litigious so we have to as much as touched it!  😇 Even local kids have not written "clean me" or drawn "pictures" on its filthy windows!  Where are the wanton vandals...there's just no certainty anymore. 🙂