The holy grail of university education.

conradmum

devoncat wrote: »

My dad was the first in his family to go to uni-my sister and I were the second and third. It was never a question of "if" we would go, but where. My parents appreciate education and have instilled that value in me. I have just completed my PhD and see no time in my life when I will not be taking some sort of class-language courses or adult ed from the local college.

I read a book called something like The Twillight of American Culture. The author advocated "elitism for all". Basically that everyone should have the opportunity for a rigourous, but free education. That education and knowledge are valuable in their own right. I believe this as well.

For some reason, you get very polarised responses to uni. When my dad went, his family were VERY proud that this kid from a poor farming community made it to uni. Now, there is not such a response and many people feel uni is a waste, not something to aspire to. There seems to be a bitterness about uni that was not present when my dad "made good". There seems to be a backlash against university.

I think education, intelligence, and knowledge can be aquired anywhere. And it is correct that uni is not the be all and end all of education. Yet, it can be part of it-as can trainee programmes and other options. There are choices and that is what we should be proud of.

I agree with much of what you say here. I think a uni education is less valued these days simply because it's more common (and I do think it can be easier now, depending on the course and the institution - I once taught a group of teenagers who'd basically failed their A' levels so were doing a foundation Science course as part of their Science degree )

I was the first to go to uni in my family too and I went in the golden days of full grants, so didn't pay a penny. For this reason, I'll be helping to support my offspring to get a degree if they want to. If they do a rigorous course of study their marks will be affected if they have to work in term time too. So, I will scrimp and save to help them out. I don't see why they should suffer if they don't have to. They'll still have to get loans as well, but I don't want the prospect of getting heavily into debt to put them off. Having a degree has been hugely beneficial in my life and I think in the future life will be much harder career-wise without one, as people with degrees will be much more common.

misscomickat

I have a student loan debt of around £15,000 (not sure exactly how much). I don't think it was worth it, and I wouldn't encourage anyone to go to university unless they needed a degree to be a doctor or something specific.

Sola

I too went to Uni in the days of full grants, but doubt I would now, reading the level of debt it can leave people with. My stepson is at college, but hasn't decided whether he'll go to Uni; at the moment he's leaning towards getting out and getting a job instead. We'll support him whatever he decides to do, and the same with his sister. Degrees are devalued these days because every Tom, !!!!!! and Harry has one, and sometimes in ridiculous impractical subjects. There must somewhere be a balance between equal opportunities for all, and an acknowledgement that people are not necessarily all gifted in the same area. I'd rather see my stepkids find their niche and be happy than be hung up on the idea that a degree is always a passport to a golden world; in this day and age, it isn't. You don't get handed anything on a plate - you must expect to work for it.

Hapless_2

ringo_24601 wrote: »

I don't even have kids yet, but when I do I will want them to eventually do a good course at a good university unless they have a very good alternative to what they plan to do when they are 18.

What do you class as a good alternative?
What if a child of yours wants to be a street sweeper?
What if they have no aspirations for further/higher education at all and want to work in tesco?
Shouldn't it be about what the kids want not what you want?

Pennywise

For once I can see where SP is coming from, I think.

With the government paranoia about getting a fixed percentage of pupils into Uni, I think a lot of people now miss the point about "why" they should or shouldn't go to Uni. As more people are going to Uni, likewise more are coming out at the other end with "average" degrees and no real idea of what to do with them - hence graduates burger flipping or being bums on seats in call centres. A lot of this seems to stem from the expectation of the pupil and parents for a uni education, but no real plans for life afterwards.

I would think turning it on its head would be better. With far better career advice, a pupil could be encouraged to come up with some ideas as to what they want from their working life, and then work backwards to decide the kind of further education that would best suit them, and then backwards again to A levels and GCSE's. A child may not know what career they want, but as a teenager, they could be encouraged to come up with some generalities, i.e. preference to working alongside others in a team or as a loner, preference to work with the general public or amongst like minded people, academic or vocational, etc. Character traits are obvious in the teenage years - if someone struggles academically but is good in creative or technical work, then there is absolutely no point in going down the Uni route making them work harder than necessary just to keep up and then still having to retrain afterwards for a job they want to do.

I dread to think how much money, time, and enthusiasm is wasted on pupils taking irrelevant courses that they effectively have to forget and start something new later on in life, all for the want of some proper career advise at an earlier age.

Sola

I don't remember much about career advice at school; it was assumed I'd go to Uni so I was handled a bundle of prospectuses (prospecti?). No-one mentioned the possibility of getting a job; the school pushed able students towards Uni and wanted to wash their hands of the less able who were expected to leave at 16. At that time I had no real gameplan - I just knew what subjects I enjoyed at school, and it was assumed I would pursue them as a degree, so I did. I don't regret it as such, and I love where I've ended up, but if I had it to do again I'd make different choices and go into archaeology.

[Deleted User]

Hapless wrote: »

What do you class as a good alternative?
What if a child of yours wants to be a street sweeper?
What if they have no aspirations for further/higher education at all and want to work in tesco?
Shouldn't it be about what the kids want not what you want?

A good alternative -
Flourishing football career
Existing entrepreneurial business
Anything with some kind of promising outlook really

If my kid wants to be a street sweeper/tesco till worker? Well, I'll discourage them and let them know i will not support poor career decisions. I went to university, so did my fiancee, as did my dad, my brother, her brother and her 2 sisters. I see a degree as a minimum requirement to gaining a good future career in the modern world.

Yeh, boo me, i'm middle class and proud. I will want my kids to do well, earn decent money, meet nice partners and live sensible lives.

Hapless_2

ringo_24601 wrote: »

A good alternative -
Flourishing football career
Existing entrepreneurial business
Anything with some kind of promising outlook really

If my kid wants to be a street sweeper/tesco till worker? Well, I'll discourage them and let them know i will not support poor career decisions...........
......Yeh, boo me, i'm middle class and proud. I will want my kids to do well, earn decent money, meet nice partners and live sensible lives.

It would only be a poor career decision in your eyes, it may not be in theirs.

I guess you will be one of those "helicopter" parents then when the time comes.

baileysbattlebus

I have 3 children and none of them went to university, the eldest is a joiner who earns about £50k, the 2nd a dental nurse on £19k and the youngest in recruitment earning between £50k and £60k. They had the choice of whether to go or not and each chose not to, we would have been prepared to help financially if that was what they had wanted. We had concerns about the academic ability of the middle one, but when we found who some of her friends were who were going our worries were groundless. And that I think is it in a nutshell, when I was younger it was only the brightest who went to university, now it seems almost anyone can go and get a degree in something or other. I think in general degrees have become too easy, are too common and are not necessarily an indicator of someone's ability or otherwise to carry the requirements of a job. My past employers (3 of them) introduced rigorous testing and interviewing procedures whether you had a degree or not, because having a degree did not mean they would be able to carry out the work expected of them and not having a degree didn't mean they couldn't. I think the expectations of some young people with degrees are too high, especially with salaries and will expect to earn a large salary on the back of university education but little or no workplace experience.
But enough of my ranting, I agree with misscomickat and would advise any one to think twice unless it is for something specific

r.mac_2

i think that the what you saw studentphil was aspirational advertising (if that's not stating the obvious).

As for university - well I am all for it, if that is what the person wants to do and is able to do. In my opinion university is not for everyone, but those who want to, and have the ability should have the oportunity.

However, university education is pushed to breaking point at the moment - we forget that there are so many other important means of education that are enjoyable, lucrative and necessary for a functioning society such as aprenticeships, vocational college courses and the tradition of passing on family run business.

There is no one-fits all, however, I can understand that parents aspire for their children to do the best they can and something that makes them happy - hence the advertisement suggesting saving for uni.

I think thye use the term as a catch all.