Will / trust

Skint_yet_Again

Thanks @Keep_pedalling I have read lots of info about trust beneficiaries become liable on death of the resident and my council say this 

If the property is jointly owned, or occupied by other persons, no exemption will apply. Instead, those persons will become liable for Council Tax.

Dad only owned half the house and the ownership of the other half has now passed to the beneficiaries of the will trust on his death? 

Keep_pedalling

Skint_yet_Again said:

Thanks @Keep_pedalling I have read lots of info about trust beneficiaries become liable on death of the resident and my council say this 

If the property is jointly owned, or occupied by other persons, no exemption will apply. Instead, those persons will become liable for Council Tax.

Dad only owned half the house and the ownership of the other half has now passed to the beneficiaries of the will trust on his death? 

My council use different wording to that.

Where the resident has died and the liability for council tax falls solely on the deceased's estate. The property is exempt until probate is granted or letters of administration are obtained and for up to six months after this.

North Norfolk CC say this.

When a property is occupied by a single person, who either owns or rents the property, and that person dies, the property is exempt from Council Tax for as long as it remains unoccupied and until probate is granted.

Following a grant of probate or letters of administration, a further six-month exemption is possible if the property remains unoccupied and has not been sold or transferred to someone else.

If the property becomes occupied by another person for a period of 6 weeks or more and the property is their only residence, the exemption ends and will not be re-applied when they leave. If the property is occupied for less than 6 weeks it will not affect the exemption although the occupiers will have to pay Council Tax for the period that they are living in the property.

Your father was the sole beneficial owner of the property, and you cannot sell it until you have obtained probate so the exemption should apply. 

RAS

Dad was the beneficial owner of the whole house, even if half was held in trust for his children.

You and your siblings do not yet own half or the whole of the property. That can only happen after probate is granted. It is currently held in trust by the executors.

The fact that the executors/trustees of dad's estate are also beneficiaries does not make them owners.

Skint_yet_Again

Thank you both for your help. The wording lifted from their website is

Is there an exemption from Council Tax when a taxpayer dies?

Yes. However, an exemption only applies when the person who was solely liable to pay Council Tax has died.

“In order to qualify, the deceased person must have been the sole owner, or leaseholder of the property. The property must also have already been unoccupied at the time of death, or have become unoccupied as a result of the taxpayer's death.

The exemption will end immediately if the property becomes occupied, is sold or legally transferred”

So there are 2 issues here

1. Was dad sole owner?

2. Was the property unoccupied?

My sister was staying with dad (on holiday?) at dads house shortly before he died and stayed afterwards during the week (returning to her own home miles away at weekends where she lived with her family/ paid council tax) until the funeral. A non continuous period of 5 weeks and 4 days. Dad was diagnosed and passed away within (just under) 3 weeks. 

So from what you have both said dad was the sole owner even though half the house was in trust, 

From what I can understand from citizens advice website the council would consider the property empty unless occupied for more than 6 weeks in a row?

RAS

This is proving an interesting lesson in unintended consequences. It may be worth looking at the Council Tax sub-forum here.

Dad was the sole owner. And the property became empty by dint of his death. Sister initially being there "on holiday" doesn't change that.

Sister has her place of normal residence elsewhere to which she returned at weekends. You can be liable for CT in more than one place but she was not intending to make this her place of normal  residence anymore than someone booking a holiday cottage for a month.

Loads of families will have relatives staying in the deceased's house for short periods whilst they sort through paperwork, clear possessions. Some will not be residence in GB and will spend an extended period sorting out their relatives affairs before going home.

The Council might argue in this case that sister was occupying for a month. But the property was empty by definition and has been unoccupied since.

Skint_yet_Again

Thanks RAS. I will ring them first thing Monday morning. 

Car should go up for sale later today. They have told me I will get a text message when it goes live. 

Dads house insurance have been informed and his policy is still in force (apart from accidental damage to buildings since sister left) until the policy runs out at the end of September. I believe we need “specialist” empty house insurance after that and we are planning to remove all contents by then. I will probably need to get quotes next week rather than leaving it until nearer the renewal date. 

Estate agent 1 are coming on Monday afternoon for probate valuation. I need to find paperwork this weekend for the loft conversion, which dad always said had planning/ building regs, so that house can be valued/ sold as 3 bed. I will get 2 more EA’s to come round, I believe we need 3 in total for probate. Do we just use the highest figure or can we use an average? 

There is some jewellery and according to gov.uk 

“For items such as cars, jewellery, and paintings, work out how much you would have got if you’d sold them. You can search for similar items on online marketplaces for this”

We can weigh the gold and calculate the price. There are a couple of watches. We have done a quick price check on other contents using sold prices on e bay. 

Keep_pedalling

I would not go to the trouble of valuing everything. List items worth more than £1,000 and lump everything else under houshold chattels with a nominal sum. 

Skint_yet_Again

Thanks @Keep_pedalling we didn’t have a clue how much some items were worth but nothing over £1000. For what we couldn’t check on the bay we went and asked the auction house. Needless to say we are not going to be millionaires. 😂

RAS

Since the estate is not near the limit for IHT, it makes sense to use the higher value on the house.

If you use a low value, the estate may well end up with an unnecessary CGT liability. Over valuing isn't going to affect the IHT situation.

jem16

Skint_yet_Again said:

Thank you both for your help. The wording lifted from their website is

Is there an exemption from Council Tax when a taxpayer dies?

Yes. However, an exemption only applies when the person who was solely liable to pay Council Tax has died.

“In order to qualify, the deceased person must have been the sole owner, or leaseholder of the property. The property must also have already been unoccupied at the time of death, or have become unoccupied as a result of the taxpayer's death.

The exemption will end immediately if the property becomes occupied, is sold or legally transferred”

So there are 2 issues here

1. Was dad sole owner?

2. Was the property unoccupied?

My sister was staying with dad (on holiday?) at dads house shortly before he died and stayed afterwards during the week (returning to her own home miles away at weekends where she lived with her family/ paid council tax) until the funeral. A non continuous period of 5 weeks and 4 days. Dad was diagnosed and passed away within (just under) 3 weeks. 

So from what you have both said dad was the sole owner even though half the house was in trust, 

From what I can understand from citizens advice website the council would consider the property empty unless occupied for more than 6 weeks in a row?

I had exactly the same issue when my Dad died in January. He was the beneficial owner and my brother and I were the trustees of my Mum's share.

Our local council had similar wording and it appeared that we would not be able to get the exemption. I had mixed answers on here with some saying I would get it and others saying I wouldn't. 

In the end I completed the council form and was completely honest about the Trust. Also included a letter from our lawyer explaining the Liferent Trust as it's called here in Scotland.

We were granted the exemption by the council.