Winter Fuel Payment if one member opts out.

Murphybear

kaMelo said:

I stand corrected.

In essence a pensioner household could have an annual income approaching £70,000 and still qualify. I'm not sure that would fit most people's definition of "the poorest pensoners."

Speaking as one of the poor pensioners this made me smile 😹😹😹

Dazed_and_C0nfused

Yamor said:

That's right, and as you've discovered, it leaves a very useful method to enable a couple where one earns over £35k, and the other doesn't, to still receive the full WFP of £200/£300.

That would seem to make a mockery of the proposed changes.  

Are you saying if someone is in a two personal household and expect to have income of more than £35,000 then opting out is the sensible choice, not to avoid complications with your tax affairs but because it would enable the other householder to receive the full payment for the household, like has happened to @pinnks?

Yamor

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

Yamor said:

That's right, and as you've discovered, it leaves a very useful method to enable a couple where one earns over £35k, and the other doesn't, to still receive the full WFP of £200/£300.

That would seem to make a mockery of the proposed changes.  

Are you saying if someone is in a two personal household and expect to have income of more than £35,000 then opting out is the sensible choice, not to avoid complications with your tax affairs but because it would enable the other householder to receive the full payment for the household, like has happened to @pinnks?

I agree, it does seem strange that they would allow this.

But it does look correct to me, looking at the Regs...

pinnks

So are you saying that where a person asks DWP to not make an automatic payment in accordance with Reg 5(1), that Reg 4(5) & (6) come into play to disapply Reg 2, meaning that said person has no entitlement, which in turn means the other partner gets the full £200?

That certainly looks to be one reading of the Regs but it would drive a coach and horses through the policy intention. 

Yamor

pinnks said:

So are you saying that where a person asks DWP to not make an automatic payment in accordance with Reg 5(1), that Reg 4(5) & (6) come into play to disapply Reg 2, meaning that said person has no entitlement, which in turn means the other partner gets the full £200?

That certainly looks to be one reading of the Regs but it would drive a coach and horses through the policy intention. 

Yes, that's what I'm saying, and I agree that it almost certainly was not the intention!

jem16

Yamor said:

pinnks said:

So are you saying that where a person asks DWP to not make an automatic payment in accordance with Reg 5(1), that Reg 4(5) & (6) come into play to disapply Reg 2, meaning that said person has no entitlement, which in turn means the other partner gets the full £200?

That certainly looks to be one reading of the Regs but it would drive a coach and horses through the policy intention. 

Yes, that's what I'm saying, and I agree that it almost certainly was not the intention!

Yet an earlier post appears to show the opposite as this person should receive £300.

Kohkseng said:

I’m new to the site. Struggling to follow the debate. I have opted out as income above £35k the other householder is over 90 and income below £35k. She has been advised her WFP is £200 rather than £300, is this correct as I’ve opted out? Thanks.

Silvertabby

Knew this was going to happen.  Mr S is on the cusp of £35K this tax year, definitely over once next April's cost of living increases are applied.  Unless I've missed something, not clear if the £35K limit is based on current income or the next financial year (when WFA for those who were not eligible, but who didn't opt out, will be recovered via a reduced tax code). 

We had a chew on about which method DWP/HMRC would be least likely to screw up, and came up with 50:50.  So, he didn't opt out and I will be keeping a very close eye on his taxes (as always) next year.

I've got a couple or so years to go before I reach the frame, but understood that I would get £100 until then.  If I do get £200, then what was the point of all this faff?  Whatever, it will still go to our local foodbank.

Dazed_and_C0nfused

Silvertabby said:

Knew this was going to happen.  Mr S is on the cusp of £35K this tax year, definitely over once next April's cost of living increases are applied.  Unless I've missed something, not clear if the £35K limit is based on current income or the next financial year (when WFA for those who were not eligible, but who didn't opt out, will be recovered via a reduced tax code). 

We had a chew on about which method DWP/HMRC would be least likely to screw up, and came up with 50:50.  So, he didn't opt out and I will be keeping a very close eye on his taxes (as always) next year.

I've got a couple or so years to go before I reach the frame, but understood that I would get £100 until then.  If I do get £200, then what was the point of all this faff?  Whatever, it will still go to our local foodbank.

The £35k limit to determine if the Winter Fuel Payment needs to be paid back is based on the income in the tax year the Winter Fuel Payment was for, not the tax year it will be collected back in.

Silvertabby

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

Silvertabby said:

Knew this was going to happen.  Mr S is on the cusp of £35K this tax year, definitely over once next April's cost of living increases are applied.  Unless I've missed something, not clear if the £35K limit is based on current income or the next financial year (when WFA for those who were not eligible, but who didn't opt out, will be recovered via a reduced tax code). 

We had a chew on about which method DWP/HMRC would be least likely to screw up, and came up with 50:50.  So, he didn't opt out and I will be keeping a very close eye on his taxes (as always) next year.

I've got a couple or so years to go before I reach the frame, but understood that I would get £100 until then.  If I do get £200, then what was the point of all this faff?  Whatever, it will still go to our local foodbank.

The £35k limit to determine if the Winter Fuel Payment needs to be paid back is based on the income in the tax year the Winter Fuel Payment was for, not the tax year it will be collected back in.

Thanks.  It literally depends on the exact method they use to calculate his State pension - he is that close! 

jem16

Silvertabby said:

Dazed_and_C0nfused said:

Silvertabby said:

Knew this was going to happen.  Mr S is on the cusp of £35K this tax year, definitely over once next April's cost of living increases are applied.  Unless I've missed something, not clear if the £35K limit is based on current income or the next financial year (when WFA for those who were not eligible, but who didn't opt out, will be recovered via a reduced tax code). 

We had a chew on about which method DWP/HMRC would be least likely to screw up, and came up with 50:50.  So, he didn't opt out and I will be keeping a very close eye on his taxes (as always) next year.

I've got a couple or so years to go before I reach the frame, but understood that I would get £100 until then.  If I do get £200, then what was the point of all this faff?  Whatever, it will still go to our local foodbank.

The £35k limit to determine if the Winter Fuel Payment needs to be paid back is based on the income in the tax year the Winter Fuel Payment was for, not the tax year it will be collected back in.

Thanks.  It literally depends on the exact method they use to calculate his State pension - he is that close! 

The exact method should be 1 week of old rate plus 51 weeks of new rate and that’s what is used against the tax code. However with Self Assessment they always pre-populate with 52 weeks of new rate and I always correct it.