HELP: Capital One Potentially Reversing Refund After Kickstarter Scam - Botnono Project

GingerTim

dataworf said:

eskbanker said:

dataworf said:

eskbanker said:

dataworf said:
Sorry but your comparison doesn't hold up. The fact that some browsers are American has no bearing on international law.

Unfortunately, you're not in any position to try to educate others in international law if you're still under the impression that UK consumer legislation applies to a transaction under US legal jurisdiction, while failing to provide any support for your assertions!

As already stated.

- Kickstarter undeniably directs activates to the UK. They have a UK presence, price in GBP, and actively market to UK consumers. This is the hook that brings the US-based platform and any non-UK creator under the jurisdiction of UK consumer law.

Where's your support for this assertion?  Case law, etc, not just some fools on Reddit or the like....

To reiterate, the context here is that you knowingly and willingly signed up to an agreement which includes in its 'governing law' section:

We’re located in New York, and any disputes with us have to be handled in New York under New York State law.

Does this help?

Not really. Do you have an example of a case where someone has successfully made a US-domiciled company comply with the CRA?

You might also want to ask at: https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/

dataworf

powerful_Rogue said:

dataworf said:

Brie said:

"I do not live in America, I am not American, I have not made this purchase in America - Simply put, American laws do not apply to me in this situation."

Ok but when you buy something from the US (or China or lots of other countries) UK consumer rights don't normally apply either.  Because you haven't purchased something from a UK company.

- Kickstarter undeniably directs activates to the UK. They have a UK presence, price in GBP, and actively market to UK consumers. This is the hook that brings the US-based platform and any non-UK creator under the jurisdiction of UK consumer law.

Nope,still wrong. 

That argument is almost as ludicrous as the UK Government thinking they can apply UK laws against a US company.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq68j5g2nr1o

Sorry but I have already come to a conclusion on this and will happily debate it for justice until the time that I have no teeth - in an amicable fashion of course.

In today's globalised digital economy, jurisdiction is based on the target of the activity, not on the location of the company's headquarters.

UK Market = UK Jurisdiction = UK Law (both Kickstarter and my bank operate here).

US Market = US Jurisdiction = US Law (both Kickstarter and my bank operate here).

While Kickstarter's Terms and Conditions attempt to dictate US law, they cannot automatically strip UK consumers of the protections granted to them by UK law - especially when Kickstarter so clearly and actively courts them as customers. The UK government's move to regulate US tech giants, as shown in your BBC article, proves that this principle is not ludicrous but is instead an established and growing reality of international law.

GingerTim

dataworf said:

powerful_Rogue said:

dataworf said:

Brie said:

"I do not live in America, I am not American, I have not made this purchase in America - Simply put, American laws do not apply to me in this situation."

Ok but when you buy something from the US (or China or lots of other countries) UK consumer rights don't normally apply either.  Because you haven't purchased something from a UK company.

- Kickstarter undeniably directs activates to the UK. They have a UK presence, price in GBP, and actively market to UK consumers. This is the hook that brings the US-based platform and any non-UK creator under the jurisdiction of UK consumer law.

Nope,still wrong. 

That argument is almost as ludicrous as the UK Government thinking they can apply UK laws against a US company.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq68j5g2nr1o

Sorry but I have already come to a conclusion on this and will happily debate it for justice until the time that I have no teeth - in an amicable fashion of course.

But on what legal authority have you come to this firm conclusion? Your subsequent reasoning is just bald assertion and vibes, not law.

eskbanker

dataworf said:

eskbanker said:

dataworf said:

eskbanker said:

dataworf said:
Sorry but your comparison doesn't hold up. The fact that some browsers are American has no bearing on international law.

Unfortunately, you're not in any position to try to educate others in international law if you're still under the impression that UK consumer legislation applies to a transaction under US legal jurisdiction, while failing to provide any support for your assertions!

As already stated.

- Kickstarter undeniably directs activates to the UK. They have a UK presence, price in GBP, and actively market to UK consumers. This is the hook that brings the US-based platform and any non-UK creator under the jurisdiction of UK consumer law.

Where's your support for this assertion?  Case law, etc, not just some fools on Reddit or the like....

To reiterate, the context here is that you knowingly and willingly signed up to an agreement which includes in its 'governing law' section:

We’re located in New York, and any disputes with us have to be handled in New York under New York State law.

Does this help?

No - that's simply highlighting that Kickstarter is happy to work with creators who are based in the UK, but says nothing about the applicable legal jurisdiction, which, in the absence of anything reliable to the contrary, will be that stated in the contract terms.

This board is littered with threads started by posters hoping to exercise UK consumer rights against suppliers based elsewhere but desperately trying to appear as UK-based, typically by using UK domains, pricing in £ and using words like 'London' in their branding, but absolutely none of that changes the fundamental position that they're outside the reaches of UK consumer legislation, because they're not actually UK companies, which is generally visible when digging deeply enough into the small print.... 

dataworf

eskbanker said:

dataworf said:

eskbanker said:

dataworf said:

eskbanker said:

dataworf said:
Sorry but your comparison doesn't hold up. The fact that some browsers are American has no bearing on international law.

Unfortunately, you're not in any position to try to educate others in international law if you're still under the impression that UK consumer legislation applies to a transaction under US legal jurisdiction, while failing to provide any support for your assertions!

As already stated.

- Kickstarter undeniably directs activates to the UK. They have a UK presence, price in GBP, and actively market to UK consumers. This is the hook that brings the US-based platform and any non-UK creator under the jurisdiction of UK consumer law.

Where's your support for this assertion?  Case law, etc, not just some fools on Reddit or the like....

To reiterate, the context here is that you knowingly and willingly signed up to an agreement which includes in its 'governing law' section:

We’re located in New York, and any disputes with us have to be handled in New York under New York State law.

Does this help?

No - that's simply highlighting that Kickstarter is happy to work with creators who are based in the UK, but says nothing about the applicable legal jurisdiction, which, in the absence of anything reliable to the contrary, will be that stated in the contract terms.

This board is littered with threads started by posters hoping to exercise UK consumer rights against suppliers based elsewhere but desperately trying to appear as UK-based, typically by using UK domains, pricing in £ and using words like 'London' in their branding, but absolutely none of that changes the fundamental position that they're outside the reaches of UK consumer legislation, because they're not actually UK companies, which is generally visible when digging deeply enough into the small print.... 

How about this then, does this screenshot tell you anything about Kickstarter's Marketing in the UK?
  

eskbanker

dataworf said:

How about this then, does this screenshot tell you anything about Kickstarter's Marketing in the UK?

You're completely missing the point - many companies (such as those I mentioned) market in the UK, but this doesn't mean that subsequently-formed contracts are magically within the UK's legal jurisdiction!

dataworf

eskbanker said:

dataworf said:

How about this then, does this screenshot tell you anything about Kickstarter's Marketing in the UK?

You're completely missing the point - many companies (such as those I mentioned) market in the UK, but this doesn't mean that subsequently-formed contracts are magically within the UK's legal jurisdiction!

You're right that marketing alone doesn't automatically create jurisdiction for all "contracts". However, for "UK consumers", it's the key factor. When a company targets the UK market, our consumer protection laws - like the Consumer Rights Act 2015 - are specifically designed to apply. Ultimately, as a UK consumer, should I receive an unfair outcome, I have the option to take any dispute with my lender to the Financial Ombudsman Service, which will apply these UK rules.

eskbanker

dataworf said:

eskbanker said:

dataworf said:

How about this then, does this screenshot tell you anything about Kickstarter's Marketing in the UK?

You're completely missing the point - many companies (such as those I mentioned) market in the UK, but this doesn't mean that subsequently-formed contracts are magically within the UK's legal jurisdiction!

You're right that marketing alone doesn't automatically create jurisdiction for all "contracts". However, for "UK consumers", it's the key factor. When a company targets the UK market, our consumer protection laws - like the Consumer Rights Act 2015 - are specifically designed to apply. Ultimately, as a UK consumer, should I receive an unfair outcome, I have the option to take any dispute with my lender to the Financial Ombudsman Service, which will apply these UK rules.

You were criticising your absent creator for using word salad but seem adept at inventing concepts too - I note that you have still failed to come up with anything remotely resembling evidence to support your view about how legal jurisdictions interact.

When engaging with regulated UK financial institutions, you do indeed have the option of escalating complaints to FOS, but in much the same way that Kickstarter aren't responsible for your dealings with your errant creator, Capital One aren't actually on the hook for your financial transaction unless there's a valid chargeback claim, so you'd need to come up with a coherent case that they've done something wrong here, when it's far from obvious (chargeback doesn't indemnify investment losses) - just to be clear, FOS has nothing to do with the Consumer Rights Act, so what do you mean by "these UK rules"?

GingerTim

eskbanker said:

dataworf said:

eskbanker said:

dataworf said:

How about this then, does this screenshot tell you anything about Kickstarter's Marketing in the UK?

You're completely missing the point - many companies (such as those I mentioned) market in the UK, but this doesn't mean that subsequently-formed contracts are magically within the UK's legal jurisdiction!

You're right that marketing alone doesn't automatically create jurisdiction for all "contracts". However, for "UK consumers", it's the key factor. When a company targets the UK market, our consumer protection laws - like the Consumer Rights Act 2015 - are specifically designed to apply. Ultimately, as a UK consumer, should I receive an unfair outcome, I have the option to take any dispute with my lender to the Financial Ombudsman Service, which will apply these UK rules.

You were criticising your absent creator for using word salad but seem adept at inventing concepts too - I note that you have still failed to come up with anything remotely resembling evidence to support your view about how legal jurisdictions interact.

When engaging with regulated UK financial institutions, you do indeed have the option of escalating complaints to FOS, but in much the same way that Kickstarter aren't responsible for your dealings with your errant creator, Capital One aren't actually on the hook for your financial transaction unless there's a valid chargeback claim, so you'd need to come up with a coherent case that they've done something wrong here, when it's far from obvious (chargeback doesn't indemnify investment losses) - just to be clear, FOS has nothing to do with the Consumer Rights Act, so what do you mean by "these UK rules"?

I'm sensing the invisible hand of ChatGPT.

born_again

dataworf said:

Does this help?

So is The project creator Melyu CHEN based in the UK?

All that page says is they cater for UK creators. Nothing more, nothing less. No legal standing statements.

In any event. You made a investment in a person/company to create a product. Like many investments & products they fail & investors lose money. That is the core fact of investments, they can go up or they can go down 👍
Sad fact of life.

If you are saying it is fraud. Then you need to take it forward with the authorities in the country where they reside.