HELP: Capital One Potentially Reversing Refund After Kickstarter Scam - Botnono Project

dataworf

UPDATE: Sunday, 2025-08-24 - Thanks for all the fantastic advice everyone! I've now got all the information I need and will be closing this matter. I won't be monitoring this thread for further replies. Thanks again!

Hi everyone,

I'm at my wit's end and desperately need some advice or just to hear if anyone else is fighting this same battle. The whole process is utterly exhausting.

Last year, I backed the "Botnono: World’s Smartest ChatGPT-4o Companion Robot" on Kickstarter. It raised over $125k from 338 backers before it became painfully obvious it was a scam. The creator, Melyu CHEN, posted a handful of updates that were pure word salad, promised shipping in "early April," then announced a "20-day delay," and then vanished off the face of the earth. The comment section is just a graveyard of angry backers all realising we've been completely ripped off.

I did everything you're supposed to: asked the creator for updates, filed a detailed report with Kickstarter (no response, not even a ticket number). So, I followed the advice and filed a chargeback with my bank, Capital One UK, for "goods not received." To my relief, they issued a provisional refund straight away.

Now for the kicker. Months later, I get an email from Capital One. Kickstarter has challenged the chargeback.

Their entire argument? A copy-paste of their Terms of Service: "We're just a platform, we don't guarantee projects, no refunds."

Now Capital One is asking me to prove I've tried to get a refund from the vanished creator and to confirm I've cancelled a contract under terms that I believe are completely unfair and unenforceable here in the UK.

I've had to spend my weekend crafting a rebuttal. My core argument to Capital One is this:

1. This is Fraud, Not a Delay: The project is abandoned. The creator is gone. The evidence in the comments and updates is overwhelming.

2. UK Law Beats Kickstarter's Terms: I'm a UK consumer. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 states that unfair terms aren't binding. A term that lets Kickstarter take a 5% fee from a fraudulent transaction while accepting zero responsibility is the definition of unfair. Their terms don't get to strip me of my statutory rights.

3. Kickstarter Failed Their Service: I didn't just pay for "pledge processing." I paid for access to a secure platform. By hosting, promoting, and profiting from a blatant scam and then doing nothing when it collapsed, they failed to deliver that service with reasonable skill and care.

The most galling part? The sheer imbalance of Kickstarts effort.

• Protecting Users (Zero Effort): Despite hundreds of reports and clear evidence of fraud, Kickstarter did nothing. No project suspension, no warnings, no investigation, no notices or warnings to it's users.

• Retrieving Funds (Maximum Effort): The second their revenue is threatened by a chargeback, their legal team springs into action to defend it. It shows they have the resources to act - but only when their money is on the line.

They are the "merchant of record" who took my payment. That role comes with responsibilities, not just a handy disclaimer to hide behind.

My questions for you all are:

1. Why issue a provisional refund just to reverse it later? It feels like Capital One didn't investigate properly the first time and are now making me prove the obvious. It's crushing to have that safety net ripped away.

2. Has anyone in the UK successfully fought a chargeback reversal against Kickstarter? What was your strategy? Did hammering UK consumer law work?

3. Am I on the right track? I'm not a lawyer, but my argument feels solid. Kickstarter's terms seem massively unfair under UK law.

This is so tiring. You feel violated by the scammer, ignored by the platform that enabled it, and now you're at war with your own bank. Any help or shared experiences would be a lifeline right now.

I don't have a grief with Capital One but now I am starting to feel that their refunding to me has only become an additional burden.

In addition to the above:

Over the last three years, I have faced a consistent pattern of having my UK statutory rights ignored and overridden by large American companies.

My experience began with an American company, who attempted to disregard my statutory rights regarding discrimination in the workplace - resulting in 1 and a half years of hell, legal action and cost to me to finally to be compensated from their prolonged negligence and misconduct.

This has been followed by an ongoing issue with LinkedIn, which is the largest job market in the UK. I am completely locked out of my account due to a broken identification loop. This not only prevents me from looking for work but also blocks me from even accessing their support forms to resolve it.

Now, I see that Kickstarter is attempting the same tactics/ strategy (whatever you may call it), crafting its terms and conditions to sideline the UK statutory rights that protect me - a citizen born, raised, and working here, who takes great pride in my national identity and the laws that make our nation worth living in.

The pattern is unmistakable and exclusively linked to US-based firms: all of which attempt to override my UK statutory rights. I have not encountered these issues with UK, European, or even Chinese companies operating in the same space. This consistent disregard for my legal protections has led me to a firm decision: I will be actively disengaging from American companies and eliminating them from my life everywhere possible.

LightFlare

Surely that’s the whole model of Kickstarter.

Some products fail,some get abandoned and some succeed 

This one failed 

The whole thing is a gamble - this time, you lost

Devongardener

You doubtless agreed to the Kickstarter Ts&Cs when you signed up, if those state that that US law applies, then that does override the law and statutory rights of any other country, regardless of your nationality or where you live.
If a project fails to come to fruition you have no right to a refund of your investment.   It is quite clearly an investment platform and Kickstarter do not retain funds raised other than a small percentage.

sheramber

To my relief, they issued a provisional refund straight away 

The chargeback process does not include an investigation. 

It is a process where the bank recall the money.

The  retailer has the option to object to that and the bank will then transfer the money back to them. 

That is why it is a provisional refund. 

If you paid by credit card you also have the option of  a S75 claim where the bank do investigate the claim. 

With a S75 claim the money comes from the bank, not the retailer.

It appears your bank are now investigating  and have  asked you for information  to allow them to decide whether  to accept or refuse your claim. 

born_again

dataworf said:

Hi everyone,

I'm at my wit's end and desperately need some advice or just to hear if anyone else is fighting this same battle. The whole process is utterly exhausting.

Last year, I backed the "Botnono: World’s Smartest ChatGPT-4o Companion Robot" on Kickstarter. It raised over $125k from 338 backers before it became painfully obvious it was a scam. The creator, Melyu CHEN, posted a handful of updates that were pure word salad, promised shipping in "early April," then announced a "20-day delay," and then vanished off the face of the earth. The comment section is just a graveyard of angry backers all realising we've been completely ripped off.

I did everything you're supposed to: asked the creator for updates, filed a detailed report with Kickstarter (no response, not even a ticket number). So, I followed the advice and filed a chargeback with my bank, Capital One UK, for "goods not received." To my relief, they issued a provisional refund straight away.

Now for the kicker. Months later, I get an email from Capital One. Kickstarter has challenged the chargeback.

Their entire argument? A copy-paste of their Terms of Service: "We're just a platform, we don't guarantee projects, no refunds."

Now Capital One is asking me to prove I've tried to get a refund from the vanished creator and to confirm I've cancelled a contract under terms that I believe are completely unfair and unenforceable here in the UK.

I've had to spend my weekend crafting a rebuttal. My core argument to Capital One is this:

1. This is Fraud, Not a Delay: The project is abandoned. The creator is gone. The evidence in the comments and updates is overwhelming.

2. UK Law Beats Kickstarter's Terms: I'm a UK consumer. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 states that unfair terms aren't binding. A term that lets Kickstarter take a 5% fee from a fraudulent transaction while accepting zero responsibility is the definition of unfair. Their terms don't get to strip me of my statutory rights.

3. Kickstarter Failed Their Service: I didn't just pay for "pledge processing." I paid for access to a secure platform. By hosting, promoting, and profiting from a blatant scam and then doing nothing when it collapsed, they failed to deliver that service with reasonable skill and care.

The most galling part? The sheer imbalance of Kickstarts effort.

• Protecting Users (Zero Effort): Despite hundreds of reports and clear evidence of fraud, Kickstarter did nothing. No project suspension, no warnings, no investigation, no notices or warnings to it's users.

• Retrieving Funds (Maximum Effort): The second their revenue is threatened by a chargeback, their legal team springs into action to defend it. It shows they have the resources to act - but only when their money is on the line.

They are the "merchant of record" who took my payment. That role comes with responsibilities, not just a handy disclaimer to hide behind.

My questions for you all are:

1. Why issue a provisional refund just to reverse it later? It feels like Capital One didn't investigate properly the first time and are now making me prove the obvious. It's crushing to have that safety net ripped away.

2. Has anyone in the UK successfully fought a chargeback reversal against Kickstarter? What was your strategy? Did hammering UK consumer law work?

3. Am I on the right track? I'm not a lawyer, but my argument feels solid. Kickstarter's terms seem massively unfair under UK law.

This is so tiring. You feel violated by the scammer, ignored by the platform that enabled it, and now you're at war with your own bank. Any help or shared experiences would be a lifeline right now.

I don't have a grief with Capital One but now I am starting to feel that their refunding to me has only become an additional burden.

In addition to the above:

Over the last three years, I have faced a consistent pattern of having my UK statutory rights ignored and overridden by large American companies.

My experience began with an American company, who attempted to disregard my statutory rights regarding discrimination in the workplace - resulting in 1 and a half years of hell, legal action and cost to me to finally to be compensated from their prolonged negligence and misconduct.

This has been followed by an ongoing issue with LinkedIn, which is the largest job market in the UK. I am completely locked out of my account due to a broken identification loop. This not only prevents me from looking for work but also blocks me from even accessing their support forms to resolve it.

Now, I see that Kickstarter is attempting the same tactics/ strategy (whatever you may call it), crafting its terms and conditions to sideline the UK statutory rights that protect me - a citizen born, raised, and working here, who takes great pride in my national identity and the laws that make our nation worth living in.

The pattern is unmistakable and exclusively linked to US-based firms: all of which attempt to override my UK statutory rights. I have not encountered these issues with UK, European, or even Chinese companies operating in the same space. This consistent disregard for my legal protections has led me to a firm decision: I will be actively disengaging from American companies and eliminating them from my life everywhere possible.

If you are purchasing form a company outside UK. You do not have any UK consumer rights. Any consumer rights are where the company is based.
Aside from that Chargebacks are over & above your consumer rights. 

Would not hold out much hope on S75 either, as Debtor Creditor link is not there. Given KickStarter have already provided their T/C

Refunds are part & parcel of the chargeback process. 


I will be actively disengaging from American companies and eliminating them from my life everywhere possible.

Has to wonder what OP is using to post?
Apple device, Computer using Microsoft or phone using Android 🤷‍♀️

Alderbank

born_again said:

dataworf said:

Hi everyone,

I'm at my wit's end and desperately need some advice or just to hear if anyone else is fighting this same battle. The whole process is utterly exhausting.

Last year, I backed the "Botnono: World’s Smartest ChatGPT-4o Companion Robot" on Kickstarter. It raised over $125k from 338 backers before it became painfully obvious it was a scam. The creator, Melyu CHEN, posted a handful of updates that were pure word salad, promised shipping in "early April," then announced a "20-day delay," and then vanished off the face of the earth. The comment section is just a graveyard of angry backers all realising we've been completely ripped off.

I did everything you're supposed to: asked the creator for updates, filed a detailed report with Kickstarter (no response, not even a ticket number). So, I followed the advice and filed a chargeback with my bank, Capital One UK, for "goods not received." To my relief, they issued a provisional refund straight away.

Now for the kicker. Months later, I get an email from Capital One. Kickstarter has challenged the chargeback.

Their entire argument? A copy-paste of their Terms of Service: "We're just a platform, we don't guarantee projects, no refunds."

Now Capital One is asking me to prove I've tried to get a refund from the vanished creator and to confirm I've cancelled a contract under terms that I believe are completely unfair and unenforceable here in the UK.

I've had to spend my weekend crafting a rebuttal. My core argument to Capital One is this:

1. This is Fraud, Not a Delay: The project is abandoned. The creator is gone. The evidence in the comments and updates is overwhelming.

2. UK Law Beats Kickstarter's Terms: I'm a UK consumer. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 states that unfair terms aren't binding. A term that lets Kickstarter take a 5% fee from a fraudulent transaction while accepting zero responsibility is the definition of unfair. Their terms don't get to strip me of my statutory rights.

3. Kickstarter Failed Their Service: I didn't just pay for "pledge processing." I paid for access to a secure platform. By hosting, promoting, and profiting from a blatant scam and then doing nothing when it collapsed, they failed to deliver that service with reasonable skill and care.

The most galling part? The sheer imbalance of Kickstarts effort.

• Protecting Users (Zero Effort): Despite hundreds of reports and clear evidence of fraud, Kickstarter did nothing. No project suspension, no warnings, no investigation, no notices or warnings to it's users.

• Retrieving Funds (Maximum Effort): The second their revenue is threatened by a chargeback, their legal team springs into action to defend it. It shows they have the resources to act - but only when their money is on the line.

They are the "merchant of record" who took my payment. That role comes with responsibilities, not just a handy disclaimer to hide behind.

My questions for you all are:

1. Why issue a provisional refund just to reverse it later? It feels like Capital One didn't investigate properly the first time and are now making me prove the obvious. It's crushing to have that safety net ripped away.

2. Has anyone in the UK successfully fought a chargeback reversal against Kickstarter? What was your strategy? Did hammering UK consumer law work?

3. Am I on the right track? I'm not a lawyer, but my argument feels solid. Kickstarter's terms seem massively unfair under UK law.

This is so tiring. You feel violated by the scammer, ignored by the platform that enabled it, and now you're at war with your own bank. Any help or shared experiences would be a lifeline right now.

I don't have a grief with Capital One but now I am starting to feel that their refunding to me has only become an additional burden.

In addition to the above:

Over the last three years, I have faced a consistent pattern of having my UK statutory rights ignored and overridden by large American companies.

My experience began with an American company, who attempted to disregard my statutory rights regarding discrimination in the workplace - resulting in 1 and a half years of hell, legal action and cost to me to finally to be compensated from their prolonged negligence and misconduct.

This has been followed by an ongoing issue with LinkedIn, which is the largest job market in the UK. I am completely locked out of my account due to a broken identification loop. This not only prevents me from looking for work but also blocks me from even accessing their support forms to resolve it.

Now, I see that Kickstarter is attempting the same tactics/ strategy (whatever you may call it), crafting its terms and conditions to sideline the UK statutory rights that protect me - a citizen born, raised, and working here, who takes great pride in my national identity and the laws that make our nation worth living in.

The pattern is unmistakable and exclusively linked to US-based firms: all of which attempt to override my UK statutory rights. I have not encountered these issues with UK, European, or even Chinese companies operating in the same space. This consistent disregard for my legal protections has led me to a firm decision: I will be actively disengaging from American companies and eliminating them from my life everywhere possible.

I will be actively disengaging from American companies and eliminating them from my life everywhere possible.

Has to wonder what OP is using to post?
Apple device, Computer using Microsoft or phone using Android 🤷‍♀️

I had assumed he must use Linux. 

However I don't know what browser he uses - most are based on Chrome or Firefox (both US companies).

His chosen bank is Capital One.
Sadly, Capital One is a US company. It's one of the largest banks in the United States and is headquartered in Tyson, Virginia.

dataworf

LightFlare said:

Surely that’s the whole model of Kickstarter.

Some products fail,some get abandoned and some succeed 

This one failed 

The whole thing is a gamble - this time, you lost

You've described the core risk of Kickstarter accurately. Backing a project is inherently a gamble on its success, and failure is a possible outcome.

However, it's critical to distinguish between a project failing and a creator acting illegally. The "gamble" is on the product's viability, not on the creator's intent.

Kickstarter's Terms of Use state creators are legally obligated to use funds to make their best effort to complete the project and deliver rewards. While they aren't guaranteed to succeed, they are prohibited from:

- Fraud: Knowingly misrepresenting the state of a project or their ability to deliver.

- Misuse of Funds: Using funds for personal enrichment instead of the project's development.

- Failure to Perform: Making no effort whatsoever to fulfill their obligations.

If a project shows signs of fraud or corruption - not just failure - backers may have legal recourse. The gamble is on execution, not on whether the creator will act in good faith.

It is evident that Kickstarter failed in its duty of care to protect me as a backer. Despite clear and overwhelming signs of fraud, the platform did not investigate and has accepted zero responsibility.

To be clear: this is not a simple delay. This is fraud. The creator has abandoned the project and disappeared. The evidence provided in the updates and comment section is undeniable.

Furthermore, as a UK consumer, my statutory rights are protected under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. This law renders unfair terms non-binding. A clause that allows Kickstarter to collect a 5% fee from a fraudulent transaction while disavowing all liability is the very definition of an unfair term. Kickstarter's terms of use cannot legally strip me of these protections.

Finally, the service I paid for was not merely "pledge processing." It was access to a secure and responsibly managed platform. By hosting, promoting, and directly profiting from a scam - only to ignore its collapse - Kickstarter failed to provide its service with the reasonable skill and care required by law.

user1977

dataworf said:

LightFlare said:

Surely that’s the whole model of Kickstarter.

Some products fail,some get abandoned and some succeed 

This one failed 

The whole thing is a gamble - this time, you lost

Furthermore, as a UK consumer, my statutory rights are protected under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

The Act doesn't mean that you can wander the globe and get UK-style protection. It's not going to apply in (as in this case) a contract entered into under the laws of the state of New York.

dataworf

Devongardener said:

You doubtless agreed to the Kickstarter Ts&Cs when you signed up, if those state that that US law applies, then that does override the law and statutory rights of any other country, regardless of your nationality or where you live.
If a project fails to come to fruition you have no right to a refund of your investment.   It is quite clearly an investment platform and Kickstarter do not retain funds raised other than a small percentage.

The claim that "US law in Kickstarter’s T&Cs overrides your UK statutory rights" is legally incorrect.

 Kickstarter are operating outside of the US in the UK market. The important part here is "UK Market", Kickstarter are operating in the UK by selling to me, the UK consumer? US law becomes the subordinate to UK statutory rights where those rights are designed to protect a UK consumer. Even EU law applies higher to me that US law, because law cannot deprive a consumer of the protection of the mandatory provisions of the law of the country in which they have their habitual residence

The definitive proof is that mandatory consumer protection laws in the UK apply to transactions made by UK residents on platforms like Kickstarter that are directed at the "UK market". These laws provide a backer with a statutory right to a remedy (like a refund) from the creator if the promised reward is not delivered. While Kickstarter's Terms accurately state they are not a party to this contract and will not issue refunds themselves, they cannot nullify the legal obligations the creator has under UK law to the UK-based backer.

Therefore, a UK backer's rights are primarily defined and protected by UK statute, not overridden by US law. The challenge is not a lack of rights, but the practical difficulty of enforcing them against a potentially insolvent creator.

Kickstarter's inaction enabled this fraud:

• Kickstarter Failed Enforcement: Did not uphold its own terms against the creator.
  
  
• Kickstarter Failed Protection: Took no steps to safeguard backers or their funds.

Again, stated in my initial post, the sheer imbalance of Kickstarts effort has been demonstrated and is overwhelmingly evident.

• Protecting Users (Zero Effort): Despite hundreds of reports and clear evidence of fraud, Kickstarter did nothing. No project suspension, no warnings, no investigation, no notices or warnings to it's users.

• Retrieving Funds (Maximum Effort): The second their revenue is threatened by a chargeback, their legal team springs into action to defend it. It shows they have the resources to act - but only when their money is on the line.

user1977

dataworf said:

Devongardener said:

You doubtless agreed to the Kickstarter Ts&Cs when you signed up, if those state that that US law applies, then that does override the law and statutory rights of any other country, regardless of your nationality or where you live.
If a project fails to come to fruition you have no right to a refund of your investment.   It is quite clearly an investment platform and Kickstarter do not retain funds raised other than a small percentage.

The claim that "US law in Kickstarter’s T&Cs overrides your UK statutory rights" is legally incorrect.

Kickstarter are operating outside of the US in the UK market. The important part here is "UK Market", Kickstarter are operating in the UK by selling to me, the UK consumer? US law becomes the subordinate to UK statutory rights where those rights are designed to protect a UK consumer. Even EU law applies higher to me that US law, because law cannot deprive a consumer of the protection of the mandatory provisions of the law of the country in which they have their habitual residence

The definitive proof is that mandatory consumer protection laws in the UK apply to transactions made by UK residents on platforms like Kickstarter that are directed at the "UK market". These laws provide a backer with a statutory right to a remedy (like a refund) from the creator if the promised reward is not delivered. While Kickstarter's Terms accurately state they are not a party to this contract and will not issue refunds themselves, they cannot nullify the legal obligations the creator has under UK law to the UK-based backer.

Can you cite anything to back up any of those statements you've made about the law?

I'm not sure what advice you're seeking.

dataworf

sheramber said:

To my relief, they issued a provisional refund straight away 

The chargeback process does not include an investigation. 

It is a process where the bank recall the money.

The  retailer has the option to object to that and the bank will then transfer the money back to them. 

That is why it is a provisional refund. 

If you paid by credit card you also have the option of  a S75 claim where the bank do investigate the claim. 

With a S75 claim the money comes from the bank, not the retailer.

It appears your bank are now investigating  and have  asked you for information  to allow them to decide whether  to accept or refuse your claim. 

Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I genuinely appreciate it.

You've clarified the process perfectly, and it makes complete sense when laid out like that. I was so focused on the injustice of it all that I didn't properly understand the steps of the chargeback.

I was not aware of a Section 75 claim. I did use a credit card. I will look into this.

You're right, it probably is a lot more simple than it currently feels. It's just exhausting when what should be simple - like not being defrauded and having clear rights - becomes such a battle. It feels like a continuous threat against simple and basic living. I received the email on the weekend - a Saturday morning after a busy work week after a lot of new changes in my life. I just wanted a peaceful weekend.

Thanks again for the clear advice and for helping me the clearer path forward.

This experience has taught me a valuable lesson. I do not live in America, I am not American, I have not made this purchase in America - Simply put, American laws do not apply to me in this situation. I will not be using Kickstarter again unless they significantly improve their poor service and attitude toward backers.