UKCPM PCN Query - Do i even bother with appeal to them/IAS?

Flem_Candango

Hi all, please be advised, I am familiar with the process for PCNs, having recently (with excellent help from this forum) had one discontinued before claim, however after searching the forum for specifically for PCNs related to UKPCM, I have not been able to find a definitive answer to my question.

Firstly, I plan to contact the landowner to ask them to get it cancelled, but my basic question is, if this isn't successful it even worth wasting my time raising an appeal directly with UKCPM?

From what i can see, once this presumably inevitably gets rejected, my only recourse is then an appeal to theIAS.org, which as i understand it will also fall on deaf ears?

Short question is, am I best to just let it play out to small claims court and save the effort in wasting my time with either of them? Assuming the landowner doesn't help, that is.

The reason i ask all this, is if it were via POPLA, I would be confident of winning an appeal, as I didn't actually enter the car park in question, but from what I have read IAS seem next to useless by comparison?

Context: We were going on holiday on the afternoon (a Sunday) of the PCN, the night before, my partner realised that she didn't have enough of a very important prescription which our local pharmacy didn't have in stock and wasn't open to dispense the next day on Sunday anyway. NHS 111 pointed us towards a Pharmacy in Wembley that opened at 12, we had a train booked at 1:30 to get to the airport so time was a bit tight. We got to the pharmacy just before 12, I dropped her off outside, there was nowhere to park outside, so i took the first left sidestreet and pulled up on the right hand side of the road.

Where i parked up is indicated by the downward arrow below:




The car park in question is highlighted by the diagonal arrow in the distance, the green ring highlights the ANPR camera, the blue line indicates what i did when my partner came back to the car, which was to drive forward onto the correct side of the road, reverse back into what is I believe a car dealership on the left side there, and drive back out of the road.

The PCN confirms I was there for a total of 18 minutes, which is correct in terms of how long I waited for my partner to be seen and assessed, we have whatssap messages between ourselves discussing this as well as my explaining I'm parked down a side street on the road.

At no point did I enter the car park in question which is for the Atlip centre (as mentioned, i have found the owner and will contact them).

The issue I see is that although i didn't enter the car park at any point, the highly egregious placement of the camera means I cannot actually prove that i didn't, even though i didn't.

This is why I ask if an appeal to UKCPM and then IAS would likely be futile and therefore not worth my time?

Also, my concern (although I'm not sure if this is even a valid concern?) in appealing to them, would be that to provide all the context would be difficult to not implicate me as the driver?

I would be confident of explaining at any small claims court hearing all of the above, so happy to let it ride to that if it comes to it.

Gr1pr

Ukcpm are probably monitoring the road,  not just the car park,  especially if its a private road, not council 

I suggest that you find out if its a public road by checking with the council,  or private property,  which a pcn is suggesting , so find out where the demarcation is 

Not going into an actual car park is not necessarily the issue here 

If all of Atlip road is council maintained,  even though it's poorly marked on Google maps, then those cameras should not be capturing VRM details , so a complaint should be made 

I don't think that your case would sway the IAS, who would probably conclude that the pcn was correctly issued,  meaning let a court decide 

You could try to argue the case in an appeal to ukcpm,  but it will likely be rejected 

Flem_Candango

Gr1pr said:

Ukcpm are probably monitoring the road,  not just the car park,  especially if its a private road, not council 

I suggest that you find out if its a public road by checking with the council,  or private property,  which a pcn is suggesting , so find out where the demarcation is 

Not going into an actual car park is not necessarily the issue here 

If all of Atlip road is council maintained,  even though it's poorly marked on Google maps, then those cameras should not be capturing VRM details , so a complaint should be made 

I don't think that your case would sway the IAS, who would probably conclude that the pcn was correctly issued,  meaning let a court decide 

You could try to argue the case in an appeal to ukcpm,  but it will likely be rejected 

I think on further investigation you are probably right, it looks like it is a private road... but how can this be deemed anything other than a borderline criminal activity?

This is the view of the street:



This would have at best, been my view turning into the street:



Absolutely no signs at the entrance to the street to warn you its private, once in the street the only sign is a tiny blue and white one that would be impossible to view and read as a driver.

I get that its the drivers responsibility blah blah blah, but how is this anything other than entrapment?

I guess the point I'm getting at trying to ask though is, appealing will probably get me nowehere, so is there any point? If it doesnt lose me anything to not appeal, I'm minded not to bother wasting my time.

Le_Kirk

Flem_Candango said:

I think on further investigation you are probably right, it looks like it is a private road... but how can this be deemed anything other than a borderline criminal activity?

Where did you get the idea that it was a criminal activity?  It is a parking event and UKCPM will chase you via the civil court!

Gr1pr

Its an unregulated industry , nothing to do with criminality,  just dubious unregulated practices, so fill in the current government survey, as mentioned by coupon mad in various threads, try to make a difference 

I suspect that the entry part of the road is council,  so as I clearly mentioned earlier,  find out where any demarcation point,  if any, actually is  ( the cameras are not at the entry / exit point,  as would be usual  )

Those double yellow lines continue around the corners from the main road and down Atlip road, but the newer tarmac surface stops just after the white arrows, a few metres from the corner,  as do the properly painted yellow lines , the rest of the road is poorly maintained on the pictures and in GSV

Flem_Candango

Le_Kirk said:

Flem_Candango said:

I think on further investigation you are probably right, it looks like it is a private road... but how can this be deemed anything other than a borderline criminal activity?

Where did you get the idea that it was a criminal activity?  It is a parking event and UKCPM will chase you via the civil court!

I was being hyperbolic, and also suffixed it with 'borderline' I completely understand (as far as they're concerned) its a civil matter.

My point was to suggest what they are doing is boderline criminal, obviously its not - hence the word borderline. 

Castle

Here's an example of a ticket being cancelled:-
Atlip Centre Wembly Car Parking ticket - getting it cancelled — MoneySavingExpert Forum

Coupon-mad

Flem_Candango said:

Le_Kirk said:

Flem_Candango said:

I think on further investigation you are probably right, it looks like it is a private road... but how can this be deemed anything other than a borderline criminal activity?

Where did you get the idea that it was a criminal activity?  It is a parking event and UKCPM will chase you via the civil court!

I was being hyperbolic, and also suffixed it with 'borderline' I completely understand (as far as they're concerned) its a civil matter.

My point was to suggest what they are doing is boderline criminal, obviously its not - hence the word borderline. 

Actually, I'm with you.

Covert surveillance is illegal under the DPA 2018. Also in breach of the Surveillance Camera Code of Practice. There was no way you knew you were being filmed or could have seen that high up camera.