Remote Work, unfair disciplinary, off sick

Tiiia

elsien said:

You can say that. Whether it flies or not depends on the type of reference that your company gives. Many just say the date that you started and finished. Others give more detail. 

Although in the situation of possible redundancy most people would hang on for the redundancy payment unless a  good offer came along that was worth losing the payout.

OK. Will bear it in mind, though I remember the says of RBS where me and many others got made redundant circa 2008! Thanks

Tiiia

Marcon said:

Tiiia said:

Hi, 

New boss wants to fire the department, due to budget cuts AI etc.

She wants to account for every minute of remote work, even when being at desk almost every minute.

For the past few yrs, I opted for super early lunch breaks to care for frail mother, but swiped periodically to stay in 'ready' mode by keystrokes, but as this is my lunch hour, I thought being available 24-7 for calls/zoom was handy for colleagues who needed me during break, but In hindsight, I should have just logged out the bloody thing.

Addition, I take VDU Breaks often due to dry eye epi-scleritus flareups (they don't know of any of my health/mental health issues because it never came up).

Put yourself in your employer's shoes...what conclusions would you be drawing? You 'opted for super early lunch breaks' to suit your domestic situation and made it look as if you were at your desk working. You've never alerted them to any health issues, but still expect them to accommodate your medical needs.

Tiiia said:

What I need to know is, can they still fire you if you're off sick, with mental or physical issues, as I've never been in this situation in over 25 years of employment? The stress has definitely taken its toll on me the last few days.

In short, I need to maximise time to find other work during any sick pay period if i opt for it, rather than get the push unfairly and going through the merry go round of appeals/tribunal etc 

A 'few days' is pretty normal for most people; not many cope year in year about without going through patches they find especially stressful.

Why do you think you can 'opt' for a period of sick pay as an alternative to being dismissed?

Tiiia said:

Can they penalise me for taking time off to deal with the culmination of issues, and point out that they think it is laptop "misuse".

I see some mental health attributes are protected according to Equality Act 2010 too, such as depression, anxiety, OCD ADHD etc which I can easily prove via private doctors (unless they find a way to auto-dismiss me without me actually having to be present).

They aren't penalising you for taking time off to deal with a culmination of issues. Any disciplinary action will be related to your own actions in terms of what will look to them a pretence of being at your desk. In other words, it's a breakdown of trust, not health, which is at stake here.

They didn't know about your mental health issues because you chose not to tell them, so forget playing that card.

Tiiia said:

Thoughts/advice, or has anyone been through something similar?

Plenty of people will have been through something similar, but their experiences are totally irrelevant to yours - although there is likely to be one common thread: telling the truth. Your best chance of keeping your job is to explain why you've been doing what you've been doing, making sure you highlight all the areas where you've been acting in the interests of your employer. Caring for your frail mother is admirable, but of no interest at all to someone running a business in a horrible economic climate, which is why you need to emphasise why your behaviour has not been to the detriment of your performance as an employee.

Tiiia said:

I think they she will cite gross misconduct,  as she has called a disciplinary immediately next week without so much as a hello, and I hear she has gotten rid of staff even older than me yet kept her friends on(!).

Quoting this sort of hearsay should pretty much guarantee a P45...so don't.

Marcon said:

Tiiia said:

Hi, 

New boss wants to fire the department, due to budget cuts AI etc.

She wants to account for every minute of remote work, even when being at desk almost every minute.

For the past few yrs, I opted for super early lunch breaks to care for frail mother, but swiped periodically to stay in 'ready' mode by keystrokes, but as this is my lunch hour, I thought being available 24-7 for calls/zoom was handy for colleagues who needed me during break, but In hindsight, I should have just logged out the bloody thing.

Addition, I take VDU Breaks often due to dry eye epi-scleritus flareups (they don't know of any of my health/mental health issues because it never came up).

Put yourself in your employer's shoes...what conclusions would you be drawing? You 'opted for super early lunch breaks' to suit your domestic situation and made it look as if you were at your desk working. You've never alerted them to any health issues, but still expect them to accommodate your medical needs.

Tiiia said:

What I need to know is, can they still fire you if you're off sick, with mental or physical issues, as I've never been in this situation in over 25 years of employment? The stress has definitely taken its toll on me the last few days.

In short, I need to maximise time to find other work during any sick pay period if i opt for it, rather than get the push unfairly and going through the merry go round of appeals/tribunal etc 

A 'few days' is pretty normal for most people; not many cope year in year about without going through patches they find especially stressful.

Why do you think you can 'opt' for a period of sick pay as an alternative to being dismissed?

Tiiia said:

Can they penalise me for taking time off to deal with the culmination of issues, and point out that they think it is laptop "misuse".

I see some mental health attributes are protected according to Equality Act 2010 too, such as depression, anxiety, OCD ADHD etc which I can easily prove via private doctors (unless they find a way to auto-dismiss me without me actually having to be present).

They aren't penalising you for taking time off to deal with a culmination of issues. Any disciplinary action will be related to your own actions in terms of what will look to them a pretence of being at your desk. In other words, it's a breakdown of trust, not health, which is at stake here.

They didn't know about your mental health issues because you chose not to tell them, so forget playing that card.

Tiiia said:

Thoughts/advice, or has anyone been through something similar?

Plenty of people will have been through something similar, but their experiences are totally irrelevant to yours - although there is likely to be one common thread: telling the truth. Your best chance of keeping your job is to explain why you've been doing what you've been doing, making sure you highlight all the areas where you've been acting in the interests of your employer. Caring for your frail mother is admirable, but of no interest at all to someone running a business in a horrible economic climate, which is why you need to emphasise why your behaviour has not been to the detriment of your performance as an employee.

Tiiia said:

I think they she will cite gross misconduct,  as she has called a disciplinary immediately next week without so much as a hello, and I hear she has gotten rid of staff even older than me yet kept her friends on(!).

Quoting this sort of hearsay should pretty much guarantee a P45...so don't.

well, it didn't actually dock from my contracted hours. It was lunch break/vdu and admin work It was just unusual to take it early, but am speculating here because I can't think of any other reason why she would pull me up 

It truly has caused me stress.

But what scenarios would mental health even be raised? It didn't have any bearing over the past 5 years, but it's only since the recent redundancies and sackings left and right, and divvying up work between the remaining people, has this taken a toll (with this as the latest issue).

I'm just giving context re: hearsay. In fact, it was 4 of my fellow colleagues who have been vocal over our daily meetings. I kept quiet and got on with it, seeing as I've worked for bigger companies where 200 calls in the queue were the norm. 

Even if I was to argue the toss and continue my employment, it wouldn't be a nice place to remain if there is spyware for every minute. And god forbid any emergency situation. Thanks for your input, though. 

Grumpy_chap

Tiiia said:

Misuse of computer facilities

You have mentioned "misuse of computer facilities" several times.
Is this a work laptop?

You have also mentioned simulating work during breaks.  However that is done, going to the effort of simulating work suggests a concern that your breaks are longer than out to be the case and / or an inherent level of guilt within the in the individual that is taking the steps to "simulate work".

What does the IT policy say about permitted use of the work IT facilities?
There may be restrictions on what may be considered mundane activities - for example shopping sites, games, video streaming content and such like.
It is not just adult or gambling type links that could be tracked and fall foul of the policy.

Tiiia

Grumpy_chap said:

Tiiia said:

Misuse of computer facilities

You have mentioned "misuse of computer facilities" several times.
Is this a work laptop?

You have also mentioned simulating work during breaks.  However that is done, going to the effort of simulating work suggests a concern that your breaks are longer than out to be the case and / or an inherent level of guilt within the in the individual that is taking the steps to "simulate work".

What does the IT policy say about permitted use of the work IT facilities?
There may be restrictions on what may be considered mundane activities - for example shopping sites, games, video streaming content and such like.
It is not just adult or gambling type links that could be tracked and fall foul of the policy.

Hi, yes work laptop

Well it was more appearing available during an odd time to be taking a lunch (considering I don't take any further breaks throughout the day after 12pm)

Hmm, I don't really use the laptop for other stuff (maybe youtube background music) or the odd shopping site during lunch, but ironically, in my line of work, shopping and adult sites are precisely what we use to check out legit businesses so I doubt any site like, say, Amazon triggered it

gm0

Breakdown of trust. +1

Rage quit or angry disciplinary might feel good. Won't keep your job for a bit (until a possible future redundancy pool at least - with a payoff).  Poor tactics.  Despite any feel good aspect.  Nobody cares about the angry exit interview. It's just tedious. And your pov of the history quickly forgotten.

By contrast - humilty, a selective reveal of issues - leading to the "technical" breach.  Unaware.  Not raised issues previously as - private - and not wanting to be a bother - loyal/hardworking etc.  Tone - sincere.  Well intentioned etc.  Minimising the offense (if it has happened).  Yes was meeting personal needs and goals AND overperforming team metrics, AND available for less experienced colleagues etc. Didn't realise this was a problem. And these flexibilities crossed a line.  Never raised with me before (if true).

Pretending to be a *sorry* loyal hardworking employee motivated to stay at the company. Humility. Not what your posts reveal. But a game tactic you could deploy.

Provides them an excuse to turn dismissal into warning within equal treatment (more or less) of cases.   100% won't get that with the all guns blazing approach. Which just cements you in the heads of all present as angry problem child not to be hired again anywhere they work.  Small world.  You provide them with that option. Or you choose not to. And if you do - they pick it up - or not - context view of you and overall severity of financial situation as both play in.

Failing that convert to warning - if the culling is intense. They may be more minded to finesse a resignation and standard reference over gross misconduct.  Which is sill a win for you.

Whether a low % but increased chance of a retained position (later redundancy or not) is worth the emotional state climb down is for you to decide. 

But I really don't see how it is in your *actual* interests at all to wind them up.  Score settling butters no parsnips.

ohreallƳ

Tiiia said:

I see some mental health attributes are protected according to Equality Act 2010 too, such as depression, anxiety, OCD ADHD etc which I can easily prove via private doctors (unless they find a way to auto-dismiss me without me actually having to be present).

A fit note doesn't prove what you think it does in this context.

The route to "proof" as you put it would be an employment tribunal judge.

What prior agreement did you have for taking super early lunch breaks and not being present at your workstation?

Tabieth

I really don’t understand. Can you post an (anonymised) screenshot of the letter? It’s not clear what the allegations are or what HR policy you are being accused of being in breach of. I’m not even sure if it’s a formal disciplinary matter or not. (Sorry if I’ve missed some of the details). 

You say you haven’t disclosed your health issues to your employer so you can’t really criticise them for not making reasonable adjustments. And I’m really unclear why you were using keystrokes on your break. If it’s an allowed break, why do it? It does come across as suspicious so I would have a very good explanation for that. 

Marcon

Tabieth said:

I really don’t understand. Can you post an (anonymised) screenshot of the letter? It’s not clear what the allegations are or what HR policy you are being accused of being in breach of. I’m not even sure if it’s a formal disciplinary matter or not. (Sorry if I’ve missed some of the details). 

You say you haven’t disclosed your health issues to your employer so you can’t really criticise them for not making reasonable adjustments. And I’m really unclear why you were using keystrokes on your break. If it’s an allowed break, why do it? It does come across as suspicious so I would have a very good explanation for that. 

The details are all there, so maybe read the whole thread carefully? The last thing OP should be doing is posting anything from their workplace. They're in enough trouble already.

Undervalued

Tabieth said:

I really don’t understand. Can you post an (anonymised) screenshot of the letter? It’s not clear what the allegations are or what HR policy you are being accused of being in breach of. I’m not even sure if it’s a formal disciplinary matter or not. (Sorry if I’ve missed some of the details). 

You say you haven’t disclosed your health issues to your employer so you can’t really criticise them for not making reasonable adjustments. And I’m really unclear why you were using keystrokes on your break. If it’s an allowed break, why do it? It does come across as suspicious so I would have a very good explanation for that. 

Plus, even if the OP had disclosed their MH illness to the employer, it is only obligatory to consider "reasonable adjustments" if the condition amounts to a disability for employment law purposes. As I mentioned in an earlier post the majority of minor to moderate MH conditions are not, legally, disabilities.

Also, whilst a GP can diagnose the condition the patient has presented with and if appropriate advise them (via a "fit" note) to refrain from work then cannot usually for legal purposes provide an expert opinion as to the cause. Whilst the patient can tell the doctor that it all stems from work, for all the GP knows the cause could be far closer to home. It happens, frequently!

Tiiia

Undervalued said:

Tabieth said:

I really don’t understand. Can you post an (anonymised) screenshot of the letter? It’s not clear what the allegations are or what HR policy you are being accused of being in breach of. I’m not even sure if it’s a formal disciplinary matter or not. (Sorry if I’ve missed some of the details). 

You say you haven’t disclosed your health issues to your employer so you can’t really criticise them for not making reasonable adjustments. And I’m really unclear why you were using keystrokes on your break. If it’s an allowed break, why do it? It does come across as suspicious so I would have a very good explanation for that. 

Plus, even if the OP had disclosed their MH illness to the employer, it is only obligatory to consider "reasonable adjustments" if the condition amounts to a disability for employment law purposes. As I mentioned in an earlier post the majority of minor to moderate MH conditions are not, legally, disabilities.

Also, whilst a GP can diagnose the condition the patient has presented with and if appropriate advise them (via a "fit" note) to refrain from work then cannot usually for legal purposes provide an expert opinion as to the cause. Whilst the patient can tell the doctor that it all stems from work, for all the GP knows the cause could be far closer to home. It happens, frequently!

Hi, thanks all for your replies. GP does have a record of the happy pills from last year I was put on, but I found it gave me insomnia, but that's by the by.

He's going to have me assessed/referred for OCD/ADHD too, I guess it's my own fault for 'pushing through for decades 😔

As for work, I'll wait til the week after and see what's what. They might push with a disciplinary regardless, I hope not, but if they do, they do.