Remote Work, unfair disciplinary, off sick

Tiiia

Hi, 

New boss wants to fire the department, due to budget cuts AI etc.

She wants to account for every minute of remote work, even when being at desk almost every minute.

For the past few yrs, I opted for super early lunch breaks to care for frail mother, but swiped periodically to stay in 'ready' mode by keystrokes, but as this is my lunch hour, I thought being available 24-7 for calls/zoom was handy for colleagues who needed me during break, but In hindsight, I should have just logged out the bloody thing.

Addition, I take VDU Breaks often due to dry eye epi-scleritus flareups (they don't know of any of my health/mental health issues because it never came up).

So basically, I was available +working from 9am to 6.30pm solid without being shown as away, taking 90 min to 2hrs per day if we roll in lunch hour and VDU Breaks in total, which is up to 10min an hr according to DSE law.

I think they she will cite gross misconduct,  as she has called a disciplinary immediately next week without so much as a hello, and I hear she has gotten rid of staff even older than me yet kept her friends on(!).

What I need to know is, can they still fire you if you're off sick, with mental or physical issues, as I've never been in this situation in over 25 years of employment? The stress has definitely taken its toll on me the last few days.

In short, I need to maximise time to find other work during any sick pay period if i opt for it, rather than get the push unfairly and going through the merry go round of appeals/tribunal etc 

Can they penalise me for taking time off to deal with the culmination of issues, and point out that they think it is laptop "misuse".

I see some mental health attributes are protected according to Equality Act 2010 too, such as depression, anxiety, OCD ADHD etc which I can easily prove via private doctors (unless they find a way to auto-dismiss me without me actually having to be present).

Thoughts/advice, or has anyone been through something similar?

DE_612183

Has she not articulated the reason for the disciplinary meeting?

I'm sure she should tell you why....

Tiiia

DE_612183 said:

Has she not articulated the reason for the disciplinary meeting?

I'm sure she should tell you why....

Thanks for reply, so on the teams invite email, it says 'laptop misuse'. The only thing I can think of is the open document/no activity on screen which they probably watched via remote software, because she has also invited HR and a IT intern onto as well which leads me to believe it is likely dismissal even if I tell her the above

Undervalued

Tiiia said:

Hi, 

New boss wants to fire the department, due to budget cuts AI etc.

She wants to account for every minute of remote work, even when being at desk almost every minute.

For the past few yrs, I opted for super early lunch breaks to care for frail mother, but swiped periodically to stay in 'ready' mode by keystrokes, but as this is my lunch hour, I thought being available 24-7 for calls/zoom was handy for colleagues who needed me during break, but In hindsight, I should have just logged out the bloody thing.

Addition, I take VDU Breaks often due to dry eye epi-scleritus flareups (they don't know of any of my health/mental health issues because it never came up).

So basically, I was available +working from 9am to 6.30pm solid without being shown as away, taking 90 min to 2hrs per day if we roll in lunch hour and VDU Breaks in total, which is up to 10min an hr according to DSE law.

I think they she will cite gross misconduct,  as she has called a disciplinary immediately next week without so much as a hello, and I hear she has gotten rid of staff even older than me yet kept her friends on(!).

What I need to know is, can they still fire you if you're off sick, with mental or physical issues, as I've never been in this situation in over 25 years of employment? The stress has definitely taken its toll on me the last few days.

In short, I need to maximise time to find other work during my sick pay period if i get a sicknote, rather than get the push unfairly and going through the merry go round of appeals/tribunal etc 

I see some mental health attributes are protected according to Equality Act 2010 too, such as depression, anxiety, OCD ADHD etc which I can easily prove via private doctors (unless they find a way to auto-dismiss me without me actually having to be present).

Thoughts/advice, or has anyone been through something similar?

The short answer is yes but they would need to tread very carefully to avoid leaving themselves wide open to a strong unfair dismissal claim.

MH - Under some circumstances yes but generally depression and anxiety etc, unless very severe and long lasting, does not constitute a disability for employment law purposes. Have you had significant amounts of time off sick with documented MH problems?

edit - I have just spotted "(they don't know of any of my health/mental health issues because it never came up)". They will no doubt argue that they are a caring employer and had you brought the issues to their attention you would have been supported. Bit of an own goal there I'm afraid!

No court or tribunal can prevent an employer from sacking an employee. The best they can do is months down the line after no end of grief award some compensation - which is generally far less that people fondly imagine.

elsien

How can you expect them to give you adjustments for health/medical issues when you haven’t told them you’ve got those issues?

You need to be clear on what laptop issues you are meant to have done. Have you got a copy of your organisations disciplinary procedure? Have you completed a VDU assessment? 

You also need to be very clear on whether next week’s meeting is an investigation or a formal disciplinary process. They are not the same thing and you have different rights for each. 

Tiiia

Undervalued said:

Tiiia said:

Hi, 

New boss wants to fire the department, due to budget cuts AI etc.

She wants to account for every minute of remote work, even when being at desk almost every minute.

For the past few yrs, I opted for super early lunch breaks to care for frail mother, but swiped periodically to stay in 'ready' mode by keystrokes, but as this is my lunch hour, I thought being available 24-7 for calls/zoom was handy for colleagues who needed me during break, but In hindsight, I should have just logged out the bloody thing.

Addition, I take VDU Breaks often due to dry eye epi-scleritus flareups (they don't know of any of my health/mental health issues because it never came up).

So basically, I was available +working from 9am to 6.30pm solid without being shown as away, taking 90 min to 2hrs per day if we roll in lunch hour and VDU Breaks in total, which is up to 10min an hr according to DSE law.

I think they she will cite gross misconduct,  as she has called a disciplinary immediately next week without so much as a hello, and I hear she has gotten rid of staff even older than me yet kept her friends on(!).

What I need to know is, can they still fire you if you're off sick, with mental or physical issues, as I've never been in this situation in over 25 years of employment? The stress has definitely taken its toll on me the last few days.

In short, I need to maximise time to find other work during my sick pay period if i get a sicknote, rather than get the push unfairly and going through the merry go round of appeals/tribunal etc 

I see some mental health attributes are protected according to Equality Act 2010 too, such as depression, anxiety, OCD ADHD etc which I can easily prove via private doctors (unless they find a way to auto-dismiss me without me actually having to be present).

Thoughts/advice, or has anyone been through something similar?

The short answer is yes but they would need to tread very carefully to avoid leaving themselves wide open to a strong unfair dismissal claim.

MH - Under some circumstances yes but generally depression and anxiety etc, unless very severe and long lasting, does not constitute a disability for employment law purposes. Have you had significant amounts of time off sick with documented MH problems?

edit - I have just spotted "(they don't know of any of my health/mental health issues because it never came up)". They will no doubt argue that they are a caring employer and had you brought the issues to their attention you would have been supported. Bit of an own goal there I'm afraid!

No court or tribunal can prevent an employer from sacking an employee. The best they can do is months down the line after no end of grief award some compensation - which is generally far less that people fondly imagine.

Hi, yes I see what you mean, but couldn't I argue that I was doing my work without fault for x years, but this investigation (and I guess, the isolation of remote working, process changes every week and terrible managers) has also culminated in mental health deterioration?

I've no problem resigning next week if I have to, BUT I think id rather take the entitlement of 10 days sick pay while recuperating and finding new work, and given this depressing economic climate, I'd rather that option BUT I still want to go on my terms, if that makes sense.

MyRealNameToo

Yes, it's urban myth that you cannot be fired during sick leave. Employers will be more careful as not wanting to face an unfair dismissal case which will cost the money to defend even if it's baseless but that doesnt mean it can't happen. 

How long have you been with this employer? 

You dont need to be "ready" in Zoom or Teams etc to be able to take calls, it will still go through if you are showing as away, BRB etc. Typically its just "offline" or DND that stops calls going through and then the former didnt used if you were actually online and just set to appear as if offline. People may be less likely to call you if you are in a non ready/available status but thats by the by. 

The fact you have found a way to stop it going into a non-ready state when you are legitimately away from your desk is inevitably going to raise questions if you have been doing this at times other than your legitimate breaks. 

Breaks from the VDU really depends on what your job is etc, some can carry on working others can't 

MattMattMattUK

Tiiia said:

DE_612183 said:

Has she not articulated the reason for the disciplinary meeting?

I'm sure she should tell you why....

Thanks for reply, so on the teams invite email, it says 'laptop misuse'. The only thing I can think of is the open document/no activity on screen which they probably watched via remote software, because she has also invited HR and a IT intern onto as well which leads me to believe it is likely dismissal even if I tell her the above

That could be a lot of things, they may suspect you are pretending to work and not, from your original description you appear to be doing exactly that. It could also be a that they have a blanket ban on personal use of work devices and they can detect that you have been using it for personal use. It could be other things. 

The first meeting of a disciplinary should be to establish the facts and present their case, you need to read your handbook to see what the actual process is. 

Tiiia

elsien said:

How can you expect them to give you adjustments for health/medical issues when you haven’t told them you’ve got those issues?

You need to be clear on what laptop issues you are meant to have done. Have you got a copy of your organisations disciplinary procedure? Have you completed a VDU assessment? 

You also need to be very clear on whether next week’s meeting is an investigation or a formal disciplinary process. They are not the same thing and you have different rights for each. 

A fair question, so at the start of my role, although I have always had depression, I guess i am a 'high functioning' one. The past 5 years since covid, I've had medical issues but it never impeded on my work quality.

The looming disciplinary Is the straw that broke the camel's back. after all the free overtime and other duties I undertook etc

So laptop issues is similar to how many (actual slacker) remote workers used, say mouse jigglers.

What I did was simply keep a blank doc open but during my lunch/vdu break, and just typed randomly so colleagues knew they could contact me. As mentioned, I should have just logged off. Worked solidly from 11.30 - 7.30 (with 1 further VDU break in PM for 10min).

Didn't take any VDU assessment as remote, but isn't this automatically levied when one does screenwork? According to Gov site, and working in corporate for 2 decades anyway unless am mistaken.

Excerpt of disciplinary procedure relevant here says:

If you commitan act of gross misconduct you will be liable to summary dismissal: misuse of computer facilities. Your employment may be summarily terminated if you commit any other actions or offence of a similargravity to the examples as these examples are neither exclusive nor exhaustive.

I'm not sure if simulating availability during my lunch hour counts as that, but my gut tells me it'll fall on deaf ears anyway.

In short, I want to go on my own terms, and am willing to do what it takes, as other colleague mumblings indicate she may or may not be replacing the entire department. We have had 9 excellent staff made redundant already etc

Tiiia

MyRealNameToo said:

Yes, it's urban myth that you cannot be fired during sick leave. Employers will be more careful as not wanting to face an unfair dismissal case which will cost the money to defend even if it's baseless but that doesnt mean it can't happen. 

How long have you been with this employer? 

You dont need to be "ready" in Zoom or Teams etc to be able to take calls, it will still go through if you are showing as away, BRB etc. Typically its just "offline" or DND that stops calls going through and then the former didnt used if you were actually online and just set to appear as if offline. People may be less likely to call you if you are in a non ready/available status but thats by the by. 

The fact you have found a way to stop it going into a non-ready state when you are legitimately away from your desk is inevitably going to raise questions if you have been doing this at times other than your legitimate breaks. 

Breaks from the VDU really depends on what your job is etc, some can carry on working others can't 

Yes, I thought I was doing a good deed being in available (and writing stuff on pad, using my mobile app and hopping on my (far faster) tablet to research work-stuff!

Initially, I was going to go to the meeting to argue that not every second of every day has to be spent typing on a laptop. Watching company presentations, townhalls and understanding the endless SOPS also counts as work too, surely.

I could also point to my afternoon + evening productivity which will show Matrix-level case completions, but here we are. 

I have heard she is very draconian, hence my plan B, to go on sick during the 10 day entitlement. Do they need to contact me first if they are looking to sack anyway? Can I send a rep to any meeting? 

Oh, and I thought VDUs were automatic for all corporate staff working with screens, unless am mistaken

Tiiia

MattMattMattUK said:

Tiiia said:

DE_612183 said:

Has she not articulated the reason for the disciplinary meeting?

I'm sure she should tell you why....

Thanks for reply, so on the teams invite email, it says 'laptop misuse'. The only thing I can think of is the open document/no activity on screen which they probably watched via remote software, because she has also invited HR and a IT intern onto as well which leads me to believe it is likely dismissal even if I tell her the above

That could be a lot of things, they may suspect you are pretending to work and not, from your original description you appear to be doing exactly that. It could also be a that they have a blanket ban on personal use of work devices and they can detect that you have been using it for personal use. It could be other things. 

The first meeting of a disciplinary should be to establish the facts and present their case, you need to read your handbook to see what the actual process is. 

Thanks for replying. I zeroed in on my contract for this alleged misconduct, and I think I found the relevant clause:

Misuse of computer facilities

Your employment may be summarily terminated if you commit any other actions or offence of a similargravity to the examples above as these examples are neither exclusive nor exhaustive.

This meeting seems to me to be end of the road, because its got HR and IT on it, even if I was to explain and prove productivity (depressingly, I'm the highest achiever on my team by a country mile) but knowing corporate, they will likely argue that I'm :

A. Taking breaks far too early
B. Simulating work during breaks (even though I was trying to be available to other teams during the AM) 😫