Remote Work, unfair disciplinary, off sick

elsien

You still haven’t said whether this is an investigation meeting or a formal disciplinary meeting? If it is a formal disciplinary meeting then you would normally have the right to see the evidence beforehand rather than if being dumped on you on the day. 

if you don’t know, then you need to ask the question.

Are you in a trade union at all?

Tiiia

elsien said:

You still haven’t said whether this is an investigation meeting or a formal disciplinary meeting? If it is a formal disciplinary meeting then you would normally have the right to see the evidence beforehand rather than if being dumped on you on the day. 

if you don’t know, then you need to ask the question.

Are you in a trade union at all?

Oh my bad. It says 'disciplinary meeting's on email, please put camera on.

They haven't offered any evidence, but the title and persons attending is concerning.

My contract says this about misuse of computer facilities: Your employment may be summarily terminated if you commit any other actions or offence of a similargravity to the examples above as these examples are neither exclusive nor exhaustive. 

(Sorry if i already mentioned, and yes i joined recently, Unite)

MyRealNameToo

You haven't said how long you have worked for this company?

elsien

Get hold of the union.

Get hold of the company disciplinary procedure. It will be more detailed than your contract about what you should expect.

Tiiia

MyRealNameToo said:

You haven't said how long you have worked for this company?

Whoops deleted first line, 5 years

Tiiia

elsien said:

Get hold of the union.

Get hold of the company disciplinary procedure. It will be more detailed than your contract about what you should expect.

I will. And I read the contract further it says;

In the event of disciplinary action being considered appropriate the normal procedure will be:(a) (b) (c) (d) unrecorded verbal warning by the Human Resources Department, recorded verbal warning by the Human Resources Department, formal written warning followed by a disciplinary interview with the Chief Executive Officer and HR Department (at which you may be accompanied by a fellow employee or chosenrepresentative of your choice); and suspension and/or dismissal.

In the case of gross misconduct, it would not be appropriate to follow this procedure. If you commit an act of gross misconduct you will be liable to summary dismissal. < this is the crux of the problem. If I attend, I could be liable for dismissal and then have to go through the rigmarole of appeals/tribunal

If I go on sick (got a dr appt tomorrow), I can still remain at company for 10 days while i make arrangements for other roles.

As someone said earlier, they can still sack you if they want, even if you're on mental health sickleave, but I've read to the contrary on employment law articles I.e an The employer’s attempt to dismiss during sick leave might be portrayed as discriminatory or procedurally unfair, opening up legal vulnerabilities.

elsien

They can continue with the disciplinary process while you’re off sick, although that isn’t recommended.
You also need to think about whether you need a reference for your next job.  Because if you resign, they can accurately say in a reference that you resigned pending disciplinary procedures. 

If they get rid of you then they can say that you were sacked so it depends whether you think it’s worthwhile trying to argue your case.

Tiiia

elsien said:

They can continue with the disciplinary process while you’re off sick, although that isn’t recommended.
You also need to think about whether you need a reference for your next job.  Because if you resign, they can accurately say in a reference that you resigned pending disciplinary procedures. 

If they get rid of you then they can say that you were sacked so it depends whether you think it’s worthwhile trying to argue your case.

I see. Can I just say I left because of the risk also of mass redundancies (this manager has gotten rid of 2/3 of the overall company already). 

elsien

You can say that. Whether it flies or not depends on the type of reference that your company gives. Many just say the date that you started and finished. Others give more detail. 

Although in the situation of possible redundancy most people would hang on for the redundancy payment unless a  good offer came along that was worth losing the payout.

Marcon

Tiiia said:

Hi, 

New boss wants to fire the department, due to budget cuts AI etc.

She wants to account for every minute of remote work, even when being at desk almost every minute.

For the past few yrs, I opted for super early lunch breaks to care for frail mother, but swiped periodically to stay in 'ready' mode by keystrokes, but as this is my lunch hour, I thought being available 24-7 for calls/zoom was handy for colleagues who needed me during break, but In hindsight, I should have just logged out the bloody thing.

Addition, I take VDU Breaks often due to dry eye epi-scleritus flareups (they don't know of any of my health/mental health issues because it never came up).

Put yourself in your employer's shoes...what conclusions would you be drawing? You 'opted for super early lunch breaks' to suit your domestic situation and made it look as if you were at your desk working. You've never alerted them to any health issues, but still expect them to accommodate your medical needs.

Tiiia said:

What I need to know is, can they still fire you if you're off sick, with mental or physical issues, as I've never been in this situation in over 25 years of employment? The stress has definitely taken its toll on me the last few days.

In short, I need to maximise time to find other work during any sick pay period if i opt for it, rather than get the push unfairly and going through the merry go round of appeals/tribunal etc 

A 'few days' is pretty normal for most people; not many cope year in year about without going through patches they find especially stressful.

Why do you think you can 'opt' for a period of sick pay as an alternative to being dismissed?

Tiiia said:

Can they penalise me for taking time off to deal with the culmination of issues, and point out that they think it is laptop "misuse".

I see some mental health attributes are protected according to Equality Act 2010 too, such as depression, anxiety, OCD ADHD etc which I can easily prove via private doctors (unless they find a way to auto-dismiss me without me actually having to be present).

They aren't penalising you for taking time off to deal with a culmination of issues. Any disciplinary action will be related to your own actions in terms of what will look to them a pretence of being at your desk. In other words, it's a breakdown of trust, not health, which is at stake here.

They didn't know about your mental health issues because you chose not to tell them, so forget playing that card.

Tiiia said:

Thoughts/advice, or has anyone been through something similar?

Plenty of people will have been through something similar, but their experiences are totally irrelevant to yours - although there is likely to be one common thread: telling the truth. Your best chance of keeping your job is to explain why you've been doing what you've been doing, making sure you highlight all the areas where you've been acting in the interests of your employer. Caring for your frail mother is admirable, but of no interest at all to someone running a business in a horrible economic climate, which is why you need to emphasise why your behaviour has not been to the detriment of your performance as an employee.

Tiiia said:

I think they she will cite gross misconduct,  as she has called a disciplinary immediately next week without so much as a hello, and I hear she has gotten rid of staff even older than me yet kept her friends on(!).

Quoting this sort of hearsay should pretty much guarantee a P45...so don't.