Ryanair - removed from flight due to my seat not existing! Claim going nowhere...

Goldust

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

Goldust said:

I was told I could do this but of course it could be more Ryanair lies but I am looking to recover my costs for the night in a hotel that I couldn't use and also cost of a trip I had booked which I could no longer avail of.  Plus we are entitled to EU261 compensation as far as I can tell.

You're entitled to the fixed-tariff compensation of £220pp when subjected to involuntary denial of boarding (IDB) but the regulations don't oblige the airline to reimburse those other costs, so you'd need to check your travel insurance policy to see if it covers those.

I’d have thought a duty of care is part of the obligations, so hotel and meal costs until they can get you where you are meant to be.

That's different - they do indeed have such obligations under article 9, so OP would have been entitled to accommodation and meals in Manchester while awaiting delayed departure.

However, OP is trying to claim for wasted costs in Berlin, which are outside the scope of the regulations.

EU261 also provides for this:

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm#care-overbooked-1

Not sure what point you're making there?  The UK and EU versions of the regulations are largely the same, and although a disrupted journey from UK to EU on an EU airline could be claimed under either, article 9 of both addresses duty of care only at the point of departure, not the destination.

The point of departure on your return flight is the destination of your holiday. 

In any case, RyanAir operate as each booking being a single flight rather than a return. So your flight from Berlin to London would be a point of departure.

You're completely missing the point here!  It's not a hypothetical discussion about what OP's rights would have been if flying on the return leg, but what their rights are in the actual situation they found themselves in - the duty of care applies only to costs incurred at the point of departure of a flight that's delayed or cancelled, so doesn't cover prebooked arrangements at their destination.  The fact that the destination may ultimately become the point of departure for another flight is irrelevant....

Fair point.

OP did you stay in a hotel in Manchester due to the delayed departure? If so, you could claim those costs back.

We stayed in Manchester - they paid for and arranged that.

Regarding expenses - they clearly stated they would cover any losses which included hotel stay and excursions but I wouldn't be surprised if they lied.  And to be honest I only let it go to the next day because they said this even though I could have gotten to a Jet2 flight instead the same day but they straight up said they "don't have an arrangement with that airline".  

Of course it's all rubbish but as a minimum the EU261 compensation is due but they are saying I have to wait 60 days for them just to respond to my initial query.  Which will no doubt be a request for more information.

I'm just looking for the path of least resistance here to at least get back what I've lost but they treat you like utter garbage and it's quite upsetting.  I was under the impression if they didn't have enough seats, they are also supposed to ask for people to volunteer to get off before throwing you off but they didn't do that either. 

eskbanker

Goldust said:

We stayed in Manchester - they paid for and arranged that.

Regarding expenses - they clearly stated they would cover any losses which included hotel stay and excursions but I wouldn't be surprised if they lied.  And to be honest I only let it go to the next day because they said this even though I could have gotten to a Jet2 flight instead the same day but they straight up said they "don't have an arrangement with that airline".

Ryanair obviously doesn't exactly have a reputation for customer service but nobody's going to condone misinformation - however, to be fair, I don't think that any airline is going to pay for accommodation in two different hotels for the same night, and likewise there is no liability under the regulations for other consequential costs, hence the earlier recommendation to address these via travel insurance.

Goldust said:

Of course it's all rubbish but as a minimum the EU261 compensation is due but they are saying I have to wait 60 days for them just to respond to my initial query.  Which will no doubt be a request for more information.

I'm just looking for the path of least resistance here to at least get back what I've lost but they treat you like utter garbage and it's quite upsetting. 

Unfortunately the regulations don't bind airlines to specific timescales for dealing with claims, but 60 days does seem excessive, especially in situations where there's no analysis or debate needed as to whether compensation is due.

Goldust said:
I was under the impression if they didn't have enough seats, they are also supposed to ask for people to volunteer to get off before throwing you off but they didn't do that either. 

Yes, article 4 does indeed require that airlines seek volunteers first, but I don't believe there's any meaningful benefit to affected passengers if this doesn't happen, i.e. there isn't any compensation available for such a breach of their obligations.

saajan_12

Goldust said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

Goldust said:

I was told I could do this but of course it could be more Ryanair lies but I am looking to recover my costs for the night in a hotel that I couldn't use and also cost of a trip I had booked which I could no longer avail of.  Plus we are entitled to EU261 compensation as far as I can tell.

You're entitled to the fixed-tariff compensation of £220pp when subjected to involuntary denial of boarding (IDB) but the regulations don't oblige the airline to reimburse those other costs, so you'd need to check your travel insurance policy to see if it covers those.

I’d have thought a duty of care is part of the obligations, so hotel and meal costs until they can get you where you are meant to be.

That's different - they do indeed have such obligations under article 9, so OP would have been entitled to accommodation and meals in Manchester while awaiting delayed departure.

However, OP is trying to claim for wasted costs in Berlin, which are outside the scope of the regulations.

EU261 also provides for this:

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm#care-overbooked-1

Not sure what point you're making there?  The UK and EU versions of the regulations are largely the same, and although a disrupted journey from UK to EU on an EU airline could be claimed under either, article 9 of both addresses duty of care only at the point of departure, not the destination.

The point of departure on your return flight is the destination of your holiday. 

In any case, RyanAir operate as each booking being a single flight rather than a return. So your flight from Berlin to London would be a point of departure.

You're completely missing the point here!  It's not a hypothetical discussion about what OP's rights would have been if flying on the return leg, but what their rights are in the actual situation they found themselves in - the duty of care applies only to costs incurred at the point of departure of a flight that's delayed or cancelled, so doesn't cover prebooked arrangements at their destination.  The fact that the destination may ultimately become the point of departure for another flight is irrelevant....

Fair point.

OP did you stay in a hotel in Manchester due to the delayed departure? If so, you could claim those costs back.

Regarding expenses - they clearly stated they would cover any losses which included hotel stay and excursions but I wouldn't be surprised if they lied.  And to be honest I only let it go to the next day because they said this even though I could have gotten to a Jet2 flight instead the same day but they straight up said they "don't have an arrangement with that airline".  

Per the regulations they don't have to cover loss of the hotel or excursions, and I can't see Ryanair  policy doing more than they have to. Perhaps the reason for the the regulation is the fixed compensation is somewhat a catch all for losses beyond the arrival at the destination airport, and it would be impossible for an airline to judge whats real concequential losses and whats inflated. 

However agree its rubbish that they're so deceitful/misinformed, especially when it means you make decisions based on that. Ideally with the right info, you'd have travelled the same day, not missed (as much) and just claimed the cost of the alternative flight (plus the minimal duty of care eg food if applicable). However I can understand if you're wary of spending more money out of pocket in the hopes of getting it back. 

Goldust

Thank you @eskbanker and @saajan_12.  It’s not worth claiming on my insurance due to excess plus I don’t think I’ll be getting any proof of what happened anytime soon from Ryanair.  

The EU261 payment would cover my losses so I’d be ok with walking away with that, put it down to experience and never use them again.  But as you said, 60 days is ridiculous and I have told them this is a black and white case and it makes no sense. But both on live chat and telephone it feels like the almost take pleasure in just saying computer says no and no further engagement is possible.

And you’re right - their lies persuaded me to just let it go based on the fact they would compensate me rather than go it alone and try to sort alternative arrangements. Although I’d probably have to bequeath it in my will by the time I got that money back. 

The worst part of all is I had special assistance booked so we were first on the plane and told to wait at the back which we did while the entire plane filled up and then we got thrown off. If I’d not booked the special assistance (which you usually end up at the back with where the seats don’t exist on smaller aircraft) all would have been fine. 

pmcgurk

mebu60 said:

Question for @eskbanker : 
If the OP had booked themselves on the other airline's flight the same day, would Ryanair have been obliged to refund that cost? 

Yes, they would.  The regulations require rerouting "at the earliest possible opportunity"

eskbanker

pmcgurk said:

mebu60 said:

Question for @eskbanker : 
If the OP had booked themselves on the other airline's flight the same day, would Ryanair have been obliged to refund that cost? 

Yes, they would.  The regulations require rerouting "at the earliest possible opportunity"

As posted at the time the question was asked, it's a bit more nuanced than that, in that the regulations require the airline to offer that, but don't actually specify that they're obliged to reimburse passengers who rebook themselves, so it's not an unfettered right but should usually be possible if the passenger acts reasonably.

Goldust

Me again… just wanted to get some advice. Still no response 40 days into the 60 days and as previously
stated, nobody from Ryanair is prepared to help. 

I see I can go via Aviation ADR to try to get the EU261 compensation and I’m tempted to start the process as I can’t imagine they are rapid either but does anyone know if this is one of those things where once you escalate, the original route gets closed off so my case with Ryanair is then a waste of time. 

Appreciate I could just wait 20 more days but seems unlikely they will respond now and are just waiting for me to go away. 

eskbanker

Goldust said:

Me again… just wanted to get some advice. Still no response 40 days into the 60 days and as previously
stated, nobody from Ryanair is prepared to help. 

I see I can go via Aviation ADR to try to get the EU261 compensation and I’m tempted to start the process as I can’t imagine they are rapid either but does anyone know if this is one of those things where once you escalate, the original route gets closed off so my case with Ryanair is then a waste of time. 

Appreciate I could just wait 20 more days but seems unlikely they will respond now and are just waiting for me to go away. 

AviationADR will only accept a referral once you've received the airline's final response or eight weeks have elapsed, so hang fire....

AviationADR can only deal with unresolved complaints.

To be eligible to make a complaint against an airline/airport you must have already complained to that airline/airport directly in writing and either received a final written response (otherwise known as a ‘deadlock letter’) or given the airline/airport eight (8) weeks to respond to your dispute.

https://www.aviationadr.org.uk/complaints-we-can-deal-with/