Ryanair - removed from flight due to my seat not existing! Claim going nowhere...

Goldust

Hi,

I will try to be brief - I could go on about how Ryanair treat people in this situation and how their entire staff lie and manipulate to get you where they want you to be but they won't care about that so I'll stick to the factual stuff.

My wife and I had a flight booked with them from Manchester to Berlin.  After getting us through the gate, they announced a "technical fault" on the plane so everyone had to go back through and to another gate and aircraft.  On this aircraft evidently there were less seats and we were the falls guys (along with a few others) who got told they had to get off due to no seats being available. 

They point-blank refused to put us on another airline's flight despite the fact they are supposed to do this and the best we got was a flight the following day which we had no choice but to accept otherwise we would have lost everything we had booked on the trip.

I was told I could do this but of course it could be more Ryanair lies but I am looking to recover my costs for the night in a hotel that I couldn't use and also cost of a trip I had booked which I could no longer avail of.  Plus we are entitled to EU261 compensation as far as I can tell.  

The Ryanair automated system of course just throws all of this out as it checks the flight was on time and computer says no.  I raised a generic ticket on their support system a month ago and have had no response.  Their live chat and call centre say it takes 60 days for them to respond.  But my issue is I haven't even given them any details about my expenses which I lost out on so I fully expect after 60 days they will ask for all of that and then we start the clock again.

It seems wholly unacceptable to make me wait all this time just to give them information I know they will ask for.  The case records are locked when you send them until they reply to you so I can't even add more information.  

I've run out of ideas and fight to be honest which I guess is what they want to happen and I'm not being unreasonable - I just want fair compensation for my losses.

Any advice or other routes I can take much appreciated 

eskbanker

Goldust said:

I was told I could do this but of course it could be more Ryanair lies but I am looking to recover my costs for the night in a hotel that I couldn't use and also cost of a trip I had booked which I could no longer avail of.  Plus we are entitled to EU261 compensation as far as I can tell.

You're entitled to the fixed-tariff compensation of £220pp when subjected to involuntary denial of boarding (IDB) but the regulations don't oblige the airline to reimburse those other costs, so you'd need to check your travel insurance policy to see if it covers those.

mebu60

Question for @eskbanker : 
If the OP had booked themselves on the other airline's flight the same day, would Ryanair have been obliged to refund that cost? 

silvercar

eskbanker said:

Goldust said:

I was told I could do this but of course it could be more Ryanair lies but I am looking to recover my costs for the night in a hotel that I couldn't use and also cost of a trip I had booked which I could no longer avail of.  Plus we are entitled to EU261 compensation as far as I can tell.

You're entitled to the fixed-tariff compensation of £220pp when subjected to involuntary denial of boarding (IDB) but the regulations don't oblige the airline to reimburse those other costs, so you'd need to check your travel insurance policy to see if it covers those.

A duty of care is part of the regulations, so hotel and meal costs until they can get you where you are meant to be. From the CAA ruling here:

If you want to fly as soon as possible, your airline must also provide care and assistance while you wait for the flight.

This means they must provide:

• A reasonable amount of food and drink (often provided in the form of vouchers)
• A means for you to communicate (often by refunding the cost of your calls)
• Accommodation, if you are re-routed the next day (usually in a nearby hotel)
• Transport to and from the accommodation (or your home, if you are able to return there)

Source: https://www.caa.co.uk/passengers-and-public/resolving-travel-problems/delays-and-cancellations/denied-boarding/

mebu60 said:

Question for @eskbanker : 
If the OP had booked themselves on the other airline's flight the same day, would Ryanair have been obliged to refund that cost? 

Yes, provided RyanAir couldn’t get you on one of their flights within a reasonable time. So if they had a flight 2 hours later, it’s reasonable to expect you to wait, the next day isn’t.

eskbanker

mebu60 said:

Question for @eskbanker : 
If the OP had booked themselves on the other airline's flight the same day, would Ryanair have been obliged to refund that cost? 

Effectively, yes - the airline has a responsibility to offer rebooking "at the earliest opportunity", without any qualification about this needing to be on its own services.

If they fail to do so, then it's not unreasonable for the passenger to reject the offer, and take matters into their own hands and book themselves onto an earlier flight than that offered, and then seek to reclaim the cost - there is nothing within the regulations that explicitly mandates reimbursement in such circumstances, but a claim ultimately ought to succeed, even if it takes escalation to ADR or court.

eskbanker

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

Goldust said:

I was told I could do this but of course it could be more Ryanair lies but I am looking to recover my costs for the night in a hotel that I couldn't use and also cost of a trip I had booked which I could no longer avail of.  Plus we are entitled to EU261 compensation as far as I can tell.

You're entitled to the fixed-tariff compensation of £220pp when subjected to involuntary denial of boarding (IDB) but the regulations don't oblige the airline to reimburse those other costs, so you'd need to check your travel insurance policy to see if it covers those.

I’d have thought a duty of care is part of the obligations, so hotel and meal costs until they can get you where you are meant to be.

That's different - they do indeed have such obligations under article 9, so OP would have been entitled to accommodation and meals in Manchester while awaiting delayed departure.

However, OP is trying to claim for wasted costs in Berlin, which are outside the scope of the regulations.

silvercar

eskbanker said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

Goldust said:

I was told I could do this but of course it could be more Ryanair lies but I am looking to recover my costs for the night in a hotel that I couldn't use and also cost of a trip I had booked which I could no longer avail of.  Plus we are entitled to EU261 compensation as far as I can tell.

You're entitled to the fixed-tariff compensation of £220pp when subjected to involuntary denial of boarding (IDB) but the regulations don't oblige the airline to reimburse those other costs, so you'd need to check your travel insurance policy to see if it covers those.

I’d have thought a duty of care is part of the obligations, so hotel and meal costs until they can get you where you are meant to be.

That's different - they do indeed have such obligations under article 9, so OP would have been entitled to accommodation and meals in Manchester while awaiting delayed departure.

However, OP is trying to claim for wasted costs in Berlin, which are outside the scope of the regulations.

EU261 also provides for this:

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm#care-overbooked-1

eskbanker

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

Goldust said:

I was told I could do this but of course it could be more Ryanair lies but I am looking to recover my costs for the night in a hotel that I couldn't use and also cost of a trip I had booked which I could no longer avail of.  Plus we are entitled to EU261 compensation as far as I can tell.

You're entitled to the fixed-tariff compensation of £220pp when subjected to involuntary denial of boarding (IDB) but the regulations don't oblige the airline to reimburse those other costs, so you'd need to check your travel insurance policy to see if it covers those.

I’d have thought a duty of care is part of the obligations, so hotel and meal costs until they can get you where you are meant to be.

That's different - they do indeed have such obligations under article 9, so OP would have been entitled to accommodation and meals in Manchester while awaiting delayed departure.

However, OP is trying to claim for wasted costs in Berlin, which are outside the scope of the regulations.

EU261 also provides for this:

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm#care-overbooked-1

Not sure what point you're making there?  The UK and EU versions of the regulations are largely the same, and although a disrupted journey from UK to EU on an EU airline could be claimed under either, article 9 of both addresses duty of care only at the point of departure, not the destination.

silvercar

eskbanker said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

Goldust said:

I was told I could do this but of course it could be more Ryanair lies but I am looking to recover my costs for the night in a hotel that I couldn't use and also cost of a trip I had booked which I could no longer avail of.  Plus we are entitled to EU261 compensation as far as I can tell.

You're entitled to the fixed-tariff compensation of £220pp when subjected to involuntary denial of boarding (IDB) but the regulations don't oblige the airline to reimburse those other costs, so you'd need to check your travel insurance policy to see if it covers those.

I’d have thought a duty of care is part of the obligations, so hotel and meal costs until they can get you where you are meant to be.

That's different - they do indeed have such obligations under article 9, so OP would have been entitled to accommodation and meals in Manchester while awaiting delayed departure.

However, OP is trying to claim for wasted costs in Berlin, which are outside the scope of the regulations.

EU261 also provides for this:

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm#care-overbooked-1

Not sure what point you're making there?  The UK and EU versions of the regulations are largely the same, and although a disrupted journey from UK to EU on an EU airline could be claimed under either, article 9 of both addresses duty of care only at the point of departure, not the destination.

The point of departure on your return flight is the destination of your holiday. 

In any case, RyanAir operate as each booking being a single flight rather than a return. So your flight from Berlin to London would be a point of departure.

eskbanker

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

Goldust said:

I was told I could do this but of course it could be more Ryanair lies but I am looking to recover my costs for the night in a hotel that I couldn't use and also cost of a trip I had booked which I could no longer avail of.  Plus we are entitled to EU261 compensation as far as I can tell.

You're entitled to the fixed-tariff compensation of £220pp when subjected to involuntary denial of boarding (IDB) but the regulations don't oblige the airline to reimburse those other costs, so you'd need to check your travel insurance policy to see if it covers those.

I’d have thought a duty of care is part of the obligations, so hotel and meal costs until they can get you where you are meant to be.

That's different - they do indeed have such obligations under article 9, so OP would have been entitled to accommodation and meals in Manchester while awaiting delayed departure.

However, OP is trying to claim for wasted costs in Berlin, which are outside the scope of the regulations.

EU261 also provides for this:

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm#care-overbooked-1

Not sure what point you're making there?  The UK and EU versions of the regulations are largely the same, and although a disrupted journey from UK to EU on an EU airline could be claimed under either, article 9 of both addresses duty of care only at the point of departure, not the destination.

The point of departure on your return flight is the destination of your holiday. 

In any case, RyanAir operate as each booking being a single flight rather than a return. So your flight from Berlin to London would be a point of departure.

You're completely missing the point here!  It's not a hypothetical discussion about what OP's rights would have been if flying on the return leg, but what their rights are in the actual situation they found themselves in - the duty of care applies only to costs incurred at the point of departure of a flight that's delayed or cancelled, so doesn't cover prebooked arrangements at their destination.  The fact that the destination may ultimately become the point of departure for another flight is irrelevant....

silvercar

eskbanker said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

silvercar said:

eskbanker said:

Goldust said:

I was told I could do this but of course it could be more Ryanair lies but I am looking to recover my costs for the night in a hotel that I couldn't use and also cost of a trip I had booked which I could no longer avail of.  Plus we are entitled to EU261 compensation as far as I can tell.

You're entitled to the fixed-tariff compensation of £220pp when subjected to involuntary denial of boarding (IDB) but the regulations don't oblige the airline to reimburse those other costs, so you'd need to check your travel insurance policy to see if it covers those.

I’d have thought a duty of care is part of the obligations, so hotel and meal costs until they can get you where you are meant to be.

That's different - they do indeed have such obligations under article 9, so OP would have been entitled to accommodation and meals in Manchester while awaiting delayed departure.

However, OP is trying to claim for wasted costs in Berlin, which are outside the scope of the regulations.

EU261 also provides for this:

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm#care-overbooked-1

Not sure what point you're making there?  The UK and EU versions of the regulations are largely the same, and although a disrupted journey from UK to EU on an EU airline could be claimed under either, article 9 of both addresses duty of care only at the point of departure, not the destination.

The point of departure on your return flight is the destination of your holiday. 

In any case, RyanAir operate as each booking being a single flight rather than a return. So your flight from Berlin to London would be a point of departure.

You're completely missing the point here!  It's not a hypothetical discussion about what OP's rights would have been if flying on the return leg, but what their rights are in the actual situation they found themselves in - the duty of care applies only to costs incurred at the point of departure of a flight that's delayed or cancelled, so doesn't cover prebooked arrangements at their destination.  The fact that the destination may ultimately become the point of departure for another flight is irrelevant....

Fair point.

OP did you stay in a hotel in Manchester due to the delayed departure? If so, you could claim those costs back.