BUS Scheme likely to extend to Air to Air Heat Pumps :)

shinytop

silverwhistle said:

shinytop said:

I think the premise that the only answer to reducing emissions is the complete replacement of ff heating with a A2W heat pump needs rethinking. It seems to me a hybrid gas CH (and water)/A2A approach could be encouraged - but I don't know how!  

Absolutely not, that's just more complexity akin to hybrid cars. More to go wrong, less efficient and no chance of saving ~ £100 a year on gas standing charges.

Talking of the latter, as more people get heat pumps or go all electric the cost of maintaing the gas network is going to be divided amongst fewer and fewer people..

The prediction of excess deaths from heat is rising so AC is becoming less of a luxury anyway. I'm lucky enoough to live on the coast and get sea breezes, but I've also set up temporary passive measures on South facing windows which help, and as I already have PV my environmental impact would be low.

  

It depends whether you want to pursue an evangelical approach to replacing gas with electric heating or look for practical solutions to reduce emissions.  A lot of people lowering their gas consumption by having an A2A heat pump helping out might just reduce emissions more than a few enthusiasts getting rid of gas completely. It's going to be very, very hard to persuade the masses to make the transition to electric heating in a single step. 

BTW hybrid cars, especially plug-ins, are good for the same reasons. 

I live inland but even when the temperature outside is low 30s deg C it's never more than 25 deg in my house.    

 

paul991

The govt will pay the extra cost of maintaining the gas supply network and just Tax us another way maybe add it the electric standing charge.

silverwhistle

shinytop said:

It depends whether you want to pursue an evangelical approach to replacing gas with electric heating or look for practical solutions to reduce emissions.   

I outlined the practical steps I have taken or will take, for eminently practical and financial reasons, and you bring up the term evangelical.

I agree it's going to take baby steps for some people, but to label a more direct approach as 'evangelical' is not helpful and just aids those who, adverse to any change, like to paint people in a negative way for actually doing something.

silverwhistle

paul991 said:

The govt will pay the extra cost of maintaining the gas supply network and just Tax us another way maybe add it the electric standing charge.

The electricity standing charge already bears the cost of environmental and other support measures, so it would be counterproductive to tax electricity more if you want to move in that direction.

Bear in mind that the mains gas network doesn't cover everywhere anyway, so I can see a managed withdrawal based on usage and customer densities. There may eventually need to be a national campaign organised like there was for the introduction of North Sea gas.

The_Green_Hornet

silverwhistle said:

paul991 said:

The govt will pay the extra cost of maintaining the gas supply network and just Tax us another way maybe add it the electric standing charge.

The electricity standing charge already bears the cost of environmental and other support measures, so it would be counterproductive to tax electricity more if you want to move in that direction.

Bear in mind that the mains gas network doesn't cover everywhere anyway, so I can see a managed withdrawal based on usage and customer densities. There may eventually need to be a national campaign organised like there was for the introduction of North Sea gas.

Even if the number of heat pump installations reaches the government target of 600,000 a year it is going to take 35+ years to replace all the gas boilers in the UK so the network is going to be needed for quite some time to come.

NedS

silverwhistle said:

paul991 said:

The govt will pay the extra cost of maintaining the gas supply network and just Tax us another way maybe add it the electric standing charge.

The electricity standing charge already bears the cost of environmental and other support measures, so it would be counterproductive to tax electricity more if you want to move in that direction.

Indeed, the government is already considering moving some of the 'green' levies away from the green fuel (electricity) they want people to move to and onto the polluting fuel (gas) that they want to encourage people to move away from. Levelling out the electricity/gas price differential to something like 2/1 would go a long way to incentivising people to make the switch.

The_Green_Hornet said:

silverwhistle said:

paul991 said:

The govt will pay the extra cost of maintaining the gas supply network and just Tax us another way maybe add it the electric standing charge.

The electricity standing charge already bears the cost of environmental and other support measures, so it would be counterproductive to tax electricity more if you want to move in that direction.

Bear in mind that the mains gas network doesn't cover everywhere anyway, so I can see a managed withdrawal based on usage and customer densities. There may eventually need to be a national campaign organised like there was for the introduction of North Sea gas.

Even if the number of heat pump installations reaches the government target of 600,000 a year it is going to take 35+ years to replace all the gas boilers in the UK so the network is going to be needed for quite some time to come.

and probably the best way to encourage people to move away from gas is for the price of gas to become ever more expensive as fewer people use it and pick up the cost burden on maintaining the network.

We live in an area with no mains gas. We have a 47kg propane gas bottle for the cooker, costs around £95 and lasts 18-24months which is less than the cost of the gas standing charge. The sun heats the house (via PV solar -> ASHP)

QrizB

NedS said:

We live in an area with no mains gas. We have a 47kg propane gas bottle for the cooker, costs around £95 and lasts 18-24months which is less than the cost of the gas standing charge. The sun heats the house (via PV solar -> ASHP)

For a while my parents lived off the gas grid and ran their central heating on 47kg bottles, so it can be done. (They've since moved and have a heat pump now.)

A kg of propane is about 14 kWh so 47kg is 660 kWh; at £95 that's roughly 14.5p/kWh. Its cheaper than mains gas (6.33p/kWh, 30p/day SC) if you use less than about 1500kWh/yr (2.5 bottles), bottles are cheaper.

We're a bit off topic now, sorry!

The_Green_Hornet

NedS said:

silverwhistle said:

paul991 said:

The govt will pay the extra cost of maintaining the gas supply network and just Tax us another way maybe add it the electric standing charge.

The electricity standing charge already bears the cost of environmental and other support measures, so it would be counterproductive to tax electricity more if you want to move in that direction.

Indeed, the government is already considering moving some of the 'green' levies away from the green fuel (electricity) they want people to move to and onto the polluting fuel (gas) that they want to encourage people to move away from. Levelling out the electricity/gas price differential to something like 2/1 would go a long way to incentivising people to make the switch.

The_Green_Hornet said:

silverwhistle said:

paul991 said:

The govt will pay the extra cost of maintaining the gas supply network and just Tax us another way maybe add it the electric standing charge.

The electricity standing charge already bears the cost of environmental and other support measures, so it would be counterproductive to tax electricity more if you want to move in that direction.

Bear in mind that the mains gas network doesn't cover everywhere anyway, so I can see a managed withdrawal based on usage and customer densities. There may eventually need to be a national campaign organised like there was for the introduction of North Sea gas.

Even if the number of heat pump installations reaches the government target of 600,000 a year it is going to take 35+ years to replace all the gas boilers in the UK so the network is going to be needed for quite some time to come.

and probably the best way to encourage people to move away from gas is for the price of gas to become ever more expensive as fewer people use it and pick up the cost burden on maintaining the network.

We live in an area with no mains gas. We have a 47kg propane gas bottle for the cooker, costs around £95 and lasts 18-24months which is less than the cost of the gas standing charge. The sun heats the house (via PV solar -> ASHP)

The problem is, even with the current  £7,500 BUS grant, the current upfront cost of installing a heat pump far outweighs any possible savings made through cheaper running costs, and one would suspect that the grant is going to be withdrawn at some point.

The low hanging fruit of wealthy home owners will dry up eventually. Plus, using a stick to encourage people seldom has the desired effect.

paul991

so after all the hassle of the winter fuel allowance it would political suicide to tax gas any more .I would like to see it happen but do not think it will in the short term 

silverwhistle

The_Green_Hornet said:

Even if the number of heat pump installations reaches the government target of 600,000 a year it is going to take 35+ years to replace all the gas boilers in the UK so the network is going to be needed for quite some time to come.

Yes, but it won't be the same linear reduction in every place which is why I mentioned managed withdrawal. More affluent areas might, for example, have swifter heat pump uptake, and new builds certainly will avoid gas. Hopefully they'll have to install PV, but the builders will have to be dragged by their tender bits to achieve that.

I'm certainly not contemplating A2A with any subsidy in mind as the capital cost should be a lot cheaper than a wet system. I already have most of my water heated by PV and an electric towel rail. Around half my gas bill is standing charge so I have that incentive.