Santander free forever bank account changes

GingerTim

eskbanker said:

GingerTim said:

What's a 'junior investigator'? That doesn't seem to be a job title at the FOS.

It's just being used in a pejorative manner to signify someone other than an actual ombudsman, but, as with much of this thread, it's been covered already, as recently as last week:

born_again said:

amyfairweather said:
...the junior investigator...

The person making the decision is a "Investigator", not a junior one, as there is no such thing.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/81707927/#Comment_81707927

Ta - trying to keep up with this thread but must have missed that one!

amyfairweather

Perhaps they should be called ‘resident investigators’, like ‘junior doctors’ are now called ‘resident doctors’?

born_again

fest0r said:

eskbanker said:

born_again said:
You need to stop going on about "Forever" One word is not going to win your case, & look at the whole picture.

My point is Santander have this nicely wrapped up the the T/C that you agreed to, not once but twice.

I don't think it's helpful to be so dismissive - the word 'forever' is obviously fundamental to the debate, as is the extent to which it can be overridden by Ts & Cs, so the situation is considerably more nuanced than you suggest.

The majority of pro Santander posts are not trying to be helpful in any way.

The running theme has been to persuade people not to take any action. "Impartial" posts, repeatedly suggesting that people should give up.

Far from being pro Santander. I have already moved my 123 lite acc away to another bank due to the changes on that account.
Could have raised a complaint. But just same as business acc, variation of acc is in the T/C so pointless wasting my time & getting stressed about it. Just take the realistic view on the change & vote with your funds. 
 Just move & take the bribe that came with the move.

eskbanker

born_again said:

fest0r said:

eskbanker said:

born_again said:
You need to stop going on about "Forever" One word is not going to win your case, & look at the whole picture.

My point is Santander have this nicely wrapped up the the T/C that you agreed to, not once but twice.

I don't think it's helpful to be so dismissive - the word 'forever' is obviously fundamental to the debate, as is the extent to which it can be overridden by Ts & Cs, so the situation is considerably more nuanced than you suggest.

The majority of pro Santander posts are not trying to be helpful in any way.

The running theme has been to persuade people not to take any action. "Impartial" posts, repeatedly suggesting that people should give up.

Far from being pro Santander. I have already moved my 123 lite acc away to another bank due to the changes on that account.
Could have raised a complaint. But just same as business acc, variation of acc is in the T/C so pointless wasting my time & getting stressed about it. Just take the realistic view on the change & vote with your funds. 
 Just move & take the bribe that came with the move.

The significant difference being of course that the 123 Lite account never had any prominent 'free forever' marketing associated with it, so falls within the substantial range of Santander products whose fees and charges have legitimately varied over the years without falling foul of any promises made.

What's the 'bribe' you're referring to, are you talking about something Santander are offering to business customers or an incentive offered by another bank for your personal account switch?

born_again

eskbanker said:

born_again said:

fest0r said:

eskbanker said:

born_again said:
You need to stop going on about "Forever" One word is not going to win your case, & look at the whole picture.

My point is Santander have this nicely wrapped up the the T/C that you agreed to, not once but twice.

I don't think it's helpful to be so dismissive - the word 'forever' is obviously fundamental to the debate, as is the extent to which it can be overridden by Ts & Cs, so the situation is considerably more nuanced than you suggest.

The majority of pro Santander posts are not trying to be helpful in any way.

The running theme has been to persuade people not to take any action. "Impartial" posts, repeatedly suggesting that people should give up.

Far from being pro Santander. I have already moved my 123 lite acc away to another bank due to the changes on that account.
Could have raised a complaint. But just same as business acc, variation of acc is in the T/C so pointless wasting my time & getting stressed about it. Just take the realistic view on the change & vote with your funds. 
 Just move & take the bribe that came with the move.

The significant difference being of course that the 123 Lite account never had any prominent 'free forever' marketing associated with it, so falls within the substantial range of Santander products whose fees and charges have legitimately varied over the years without falling foul of any promises made.

What's the 'bribe' you're referring to, are you talking about something Santander are offering to business customers or an incentive offered by another bank for your personal account switch?

Bribe is what new bank is paying for you to move to them.

Would be interesting to find out the last time "Free Forever" was used in advert for the account. Which seems to have been pre 2012 & the last kick off over charges & the then change of the T/C

eskbanker

born_again said:

Would be interesting to find out the last time "Free Forever" was used in advert for the account. Which seems to have been pre 2012 & the last kick off over charges & the then change of the T/C

According to the 2012 MSE article linked yesterday:

Santander marketed its business banking account as "free forever" until it dropped the phrase at the end of 2010.

but I don't think anyone was claiming or suggesting otherwise?

amyfairweather

Here is something else that the resident investigator at the FOS failed to take account of, which the attention of the ombudsman will be drawn to.

The 'guarantee', set out below.

Note: free "current account banking" - not linked to a specific named product such as "Everyday whatever account".

Free business banking - what's the catch?

Many banks offer free or low-cost business banking.  But we're different: we don't impose time limits or insist on a minimum balance.  So long as you stay within the number of transactions in the table overleaf - and 90% of our customers do - then you'll enjoy free current account banking forever.  That's guaranteed, unless there are any changes to the law or to banking regulations, or any new taxes relating to bank charges.

eskbanker

amyfairweather said:

Here is something else that the resident investigator at the FOS failed to take account of, which the attention of the ombudsman will be drawn to.

The 'guarantee', set out below.

Note: free "current account banking" - not linked to a specific named product such as "Everyday whatever account".

Free business banking - what's the catch?

Many banks offer free or low-cost business banking.  But we're different: we don't impose time limits or insist on a minimum balance.  So long as you stay within the number of transactions in the table overleaf - and 90% of our customers do - then you'll enjoy free current account banking forever.  That's guaranteed, unless there are any changes to the law or to banking regulations, or any new taxes relating to bank charges.

In the response shared previously, the FOS investigator did take account of the guarantee, but chose to accept Santander's argument about the changes to the law and/or banking regulations:

While I’m satisfied that Santander can implement these changes in line with the terms and conditions, I’ve also thought about whether it’s fair for the bank to do so. After consideration, I do think it is fair.

I say this because I think it’s reasonable to accept that Santander’s costs have likely grown substantially over the years. And it has been subject to changes in regulation, for example, additional regulation around monitoring accounts for various risks including protecting its customers from fraud and scams. In my view, the fact that it’s now common for a bank to have regular charges for business accounts is a reflection of these costs. Nor can Santander be said to be out of step with the wider industry in introducing them.

[...]

I’ve also looked at other documentation our service has seen, such as welcome packs and the literature describing the “fee-free for life” promotion, which is likely to have been the sort of information you would have seen at the time.

From this, I’ve seen that in the 2000’s (when Santander was advertising fee-free banking) the bank still made some caveat to this “promise” – such as how it might be varied due to changes in law or regulation. Naturally there have been numerous changes in law and regulation since then; and, perhaps more importantly, it speaks to the point that, even at the time, there was reason to suspect that one day the benefit of fee-free banking may end.

I completely understand why you'd wish to challenge that interpretation, but I'm just making the point that the guarantee was considered, so it's not new evidence to bring to the table as such but simply disputing how it's interpreted.

born_again

amyfairweather said:

Here is something else that the resident investigator at the FOS failed to take account of, which the attention of the ombudsman will be drawn to.

The 'guarantee', set out below.

Note: free "current account banking" - not linked to a specific named product such as "Everyday whatever account".

Free business banking - what's the catch?

Many banks offer free or low-cost business banking.  But we're different: we don't impose time limits or insist on a minimum balance.  So long as you stay within the number of transactions in the table overleaf - and 90% of our customers do - then you'll enjoy free current account banking forever.  That's guaranteed, unless there are any changes to the law or to banking regulations, or any new taxes relating to bank charges.

When is that from?

eskbanker

born_again said:
When is that from?

Evidently within the pre-[end of]2010 window mentioned earlier, based on the URL in the last line....