Large Sign

Section62 · 8 July at 9:13AM

bobster2 said:

Hmmm...I think the sign writer might have trouble enforcing the penalty charge.
Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012: Recovery of Unpaid Parking Charges says that private land owners can impose a penalty charge where someone breaches a parking contract - i.e. where someone is invited to park on private land with payment of a fee, and perhaps they don't pay the fee or overstay.
However, in circumstances where there was no invitation to park - and therefore no parking contract to be breached - then this is simply trespass rather than breach of a contract and...
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79d6be40f0b670a8025ccb/guidance-unpaid-parking-charges.pdf
Schedule 4 also provides for parking charges in England and Wales to be recoverable from the registered keeper where a person trespasses on private land by parking a vehicle on the land without permission. In those circumstances a landholder must be able to show he or she has suffered a loss and justify the damages they are seeking to recover for the trespass

That's Ok, I think they were on to this detail already, which is why the sign also says 'trespassers will be prosecuted'.

artyboy · 8 July at 10:10AM

Good grief... "Penalty"? Total muppets. Who do they think they are, the council? You don't need to worry about enforceability and all the technical niceties of PoFA when there is guff like this on the sign.

@Coupon-mad or one of the other experts on the parking forum may have a view on the legality of putting up a sign like this?

(Incidentally, the private road leading up to a flat I'm buying still talks about clamping unauthorised cars, so there's a vast level of ignorance of parking laws everywhere...)

bobster2 · 8 July at 10:14AM

Section62 said:

bobster2 said:

Hmmm...I think the sign writer might have trouble enforcing the penalty charge.
Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012: Recovery of Unpaid Parking Charges says that private land owners can impose a penalty charge where someone breaches a parking contract - i.e. where someone is invited to park on private land with payment of a fee, and perhaps they don't pay the fee or overstay.
However, in circumstances where there was no invitation to park - and therefore no parking contract to be breached - then this is simply trespass rather than breach of a contract and...
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79d6be40f0b670a8025ccb/guidance-unpaid-parking-charges.pdf
Schedule 4 also provides for parking charges in England and Wales to be recoverable from the registered keeper where a person trespasses on private land by parking a vehicle on the land without permission. In those circumstances a landholder must be able to show he or she has suffered a loss and justify the damages they are seeking to recover for the trespass

That's Ok, I think they were on to this detail already, which is why the sign also says 'trespassers will be prosecuted'.

Yes - but look further down. They say they will issue a "penalty notice" for £100 for every occurrence of unauthorised access by a vehicle. This is the part I think they will have trouble enforcing.

I think they'd need to try prosecution to get anything - rather than these "penalty notices".

Herzlos · 8 July at 10:52AM

There's no way the sign is enforceable from a parking invoice perspective, since it's even more garbage than the standard companies. There was unlikely to be any consideration at to whether displaying the banner was legal either.

But it implies there's a very angry man in the house watching the cameras ready to pounce or argue with whatever neighbour has used the path. Presumably this is the escalation of some neighbourly parking dispute, or one of the neighbours/delivery companies has used the path for access to a back door or whatever.

eddddy · 8 July at 10:52AM

bobster2 said:

Hmmm...I think the sign writer might have trouble enforcing the penalty charge.
Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012: Recovery of Unpaid Parking Charges says that private land owners can impose a penalty charge where someone breaches a parking contract - i.e. where someone is invited to park on private land with payment of a fee, and perhaps they don't pay the fee or overstay.
However, in circumstances where there was no invitation to park - and therefore no parking contract to be breached - then this is simply trespass rather than breach of a contract and...
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79d6be40f0b670a8025ccb/guidance-unpaid-parking-charges.pdf
Schedule 4 also provides for parking charges in England and Wales to be recoverable from the registered keeper where a person trespasses on private land by parking a vehicle on the land without permission. In those circumstances a landholder must be able to show he or she has suffered a loss and justify the damages they are seeking to recover for the trespass

FWIW, the sign refers to a "penalty notice". Only specific official bodies can charge a "penalty". Individuals, companies etc cannot impose penalties.

As you imply, they could have deterred people from parking by saying something like this instead "The charge for parking on my drive is £100 per visit".

(Assuming the signs were clear etc, a court would probably agree that by parking, a driver was entering into an implied contract. But it gets complicated if you don't know the identity of the driver.)

Section62 · 8 July at 10:57AM

bobster2 said:

Section62 said:

bobster2 said:

Hmmm...I think the sign writer might have trouble enforcing the penalty charge.
Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012: Recovery of Unpaid Parking Charges says that private land owners can impose a penalty charge where someone breaches a parking contract - i.e. where someone is invited to park on private land with payment of a fee, and perhaps they don't pay the fee or overstay.
However, in circumstances where there was no invitation to park - and therefore no parking contract to be breached - then this is simply trespass rather than breach of a contract and...
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79d6be40f0b670a8025ccb/guidance-unpaid-parking-charges.pdf
Schedule 4 also provides for parking charges in England and Wales to be recoverable from the registered keeper where a person trespasses on private land by parking a vehicle on the land without permission. In those circumstances a landholder must be able to show he or she has suffered a loss and justify the damages they are seeking to recover for the trespass

That's Ok, I think they were on to this detail already, which is why the sign also says 'trespassers will be prosecuted'.

Yes - but look further down. They say they will issue a "penalty notice" for £100 for every occurrence of unauthorised access by a vehicle. This is the part I think they will have trouble enforcing.
I think they'd need to try prosecution to get anything - rather than these "penalty notices".

Yes, that was my point - they have thrown pretty much everything (other than the kitchen sink) into the notice, but it is probably unlikely that any of it can be enforced.

The starting point will be what access rights does the target property actually have - and is it what appears to be the house (with a garage) some way behind the house, or the one mostly out of shot to the right of the photo. E.g. who owns the van, and how does it get to where it is parked?

This is a somewhat separate issue to whether the owner of number 3 can put up a notice/sign of this type without obtaining consent... for planning purposes I think it would be classed as an advert and therefore would require advertising consent if it doesn't fall within one of the exempt/deemed categories. The sign doesn't threaten wheelclamping or (as far as I can see) anything which would be an unlawful act, therefore a possible planning breach would likely be the main issue. (unless the side of the wall it is on is highway)

KxMx · 8 July at 11:52AM

Personally I'd also argue/investigate the anti social behaviour route.

ic · 8 July at 2:46PM

I wonder how long you have to park up, read the t&cs on the sign (clearly not visible from the entrance) and then leave without "enforcement action" as you decide to agree to the t&cs and leave? I'd assume that the owner has no access to DVLA records to know who is driving there. As above its just a neighbour dispute getting silly - certainly one way to advertise you don't want unsolicited mail or canvassers knocking on.

ExEstateAgent · 8 July at 5:26PM

Also, unless they're a registered business I don't know how they'd get the vehicle owners details from DVLA! I suspect its a slightly unhinged person who thinks they can slap 'fines' on their neighbours cars!