Charging order

TomThumb2

housebuyer143 said:

TomThumb2 said:

Land_Registry said:

silvercar said:

Paging @Land_Registry

Pretty sure the OP is already aware re what's required from a registration perspective for this one. Either the creditor discharges it or the OP goes back to court to get it dismissed and then applies to update the register as appropriate. Hopefully they are on the right track as a result

Is that 100% the Land Registry position that the only evidence they would accept is a court order and not evidence that the creditor isn't responding/can't be traced?

The land registry has responded. They have told the OP what they need as have the other posters. Just because they can't trace them doesn't mean the LR can just remove the charge. 

No, the LR haven't confirmed exactly what the OP would need, other posters haven't either, hence the question. LR are best placed to respond to it. We don't know what the LR need to remove the charge, or to put it another way just because they can't trace them doesn't mean the charge can't be removed and sits there indefinitely.

Question is whether it is 100% the case that the only evidence the LR would accept is a court order and not evidence that the creditor isn't responding/can't be traced?

I'd recommend that unless the LR is able to advise comprehensively here then the OP telwphone the LR to get advice on what to do. My understanding is that the LR have their own in-house Legal whk consider evidence in cases like this - although unusual they aren't that uncommon. The OP may need to go to court but it is worth making sure prior to doing so.

housebuyer143

TomThumb2 said:

housebuyer143 said:

TomThumb2 said:

Land_Registry said:

silvercar said:

Paging @Land_Registry

Pretty sure the OP is already aware re what's required from a registration perspective for this one. Either the creditor discharges it or the OP goes back to court to get it dismissed and then applies to update the register as appropriate. Hopefully they are on the right track as a result

Is that 100% the Land Registry position that the only evidence they would accept is a court order and not evidence that the creditor isn't responding/can't be traced?

The land registry has responded. They have told the OP what they need as have the other posters. Just because they can't trace them doesn't mean the LR can just remove the charge. 

No, the LR haven't confirmed exactly what the OP would need, other posters haven't either, hence the question. LR are best placed to respond to it. We don't know what the LR need to remove the charge, or to put it another way just because they can't trace them doesn't mean the charge can't be removed and sits there indefinitely.

Question is whether it is 100% the case that the only evidence the LR would accept is a court order and not evidence that the creditor isn't responding/can't be traced?

I'd recommend that unless the LR is able to advise comprehensively here then the OP telwphone the LR to get advice on what to do. My understanding is that the LR have their own in-house Legal whk consider evidence in cases like this - although unusual they aren't that uncommon. The OP may need to go to court but it is worth making sure prior to doing so.

The LR literally responded in this thread, you actually quoted it and still didn't seem to believe them🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️.
 You appear to know more than the actual land registry representative though, so I'll leave it with you. 

TomThumb2

housebuyer143 said:

TomThumb2 said:

housebuyer143 said:

TomThumb2 said:

Land_Registry said:

silvercar said:

Paging @Land_Registry

Pretty sure the OP is already aware re what's required from a registration perspective for this one. Either the creditor discharges it or the OP goes back to court to get it dismissed and then applies to update the register as appropriate. Hopefully they are on the right track as a result

Is that 100% the Land Registry position that the only evidence they would accept is a court order and not evidence that the creditor isn't responding/can't be traced?

The land registry has responded. They have told the OP what they need as have the other posters. Just because they can't trace them doesn't mean the LR can just remove the charge. 

No, the LR haven't confirmed exactly what the OP would need, other posters haven't either, hence the question. LR are best placed to respond to it. We don't know what the LR need to remove the charge, or to put it another way just because they can't trace them doesn't mean the charge can't be removed and sits there indefinitely.

Question is whether it is 100% the case that the only evidence the LR would accept is a court order and not evidence that the creditor isn't responding/can't be traced?

I'd recommend that unless the LR is able to advise comprehensively here then the OP telwphone the LR to get advice on what to do. My understanding is that the LR have their own in-house Legal whk consider evidence in cases like this - although unusual they aren't that uncommon. The OP may need to go to court but it is worth making sure prior to doing so.

The LR literally responded in this thread 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️  You appear to know more than the actual land registry representative though, so I'll leave it with you. 

I don't see a response confirming whether it is 100% the case that the only evidence the LR would accept is a court order and not evidence that the creditor isn't responding/can't be traced, hence my question. Remember, a response in a thread doesn't automatically answer any questions which might come up in the same thread, not sure why you think it does.

I don't claim to know more than anyone, least of all the LR, hence the question to them and the suggestion that the OP telephone them!

Rita1960

Good evening, and thanks for the many replies and valuable information. I have spoke to the LR several times regarding this issue, each time I receive a sympathetic ear from the agent on the phone after explaining in full the efforts that i have put in in trying to locate anyone from this company or from their now closed solicitors office, i have sent all information from their website which tells anyone that this company no longer operates and that there is no further contact details, on companies house i located the 2 directors and rang them but the phones just went dead? The LR have asked that the creditor be contacted but this is not possible and so i go around in circles.. i think my only option is to go to the court and explain my case and see what they can do? I note from the thread replies that the LR have a their own in house legal dept to look at this, the agents on the LR phones tell me that their supervisor will review it and tell me what to do, but they say the same thing repeatedly and this is that they cannot just remove the restriction of which i understand, but i cannot give them what they ask, i put this to a high street solicitor and he just said that this was a new one to him and for £1000 up front he will ‘see what he can do’.

a dilemma 

GDB2222

Rita1960 said:

Good evening, and thanks for the many replies and valuable information. I have spoke to the LR several times regarding this issue, each time I receive a sympathetic ear from the agent on the phone after explaining in full the efforts that i have put in in trying to locate anyone from this company or from their now closed solicitors office, i have sent all information from their website which tells anyone that this company no longer operates and that there is no further contact details, on companies house i located the 2 directors and rang them but the phones just went dead? The LR have asked that the creditor be contacted but this is not possible and so i go around in circles.. i think my only option is to go to the court and explain my case and see what they can do? I note from the thread replies that the LR have a their own in house legal dept to look at this, the agents on the LR phones tell me that their supervisor will review it and tell me what to do, but they say the same thing repeatedly and this is that they cannot just remove the restriction of which i understand, but i cannot give them what they ask, i put this to a high street solicitor and he just said that this was a new one to him and for £1000 up front he will ‘see what he can do’.

a dilemma 

You obviously realise that the court process is pretty regimented. You need to present a written case, with a formal witness statement. Are you proposing to do that yourself? 

TomThumb2

Rita1960 said:

Good evening, and thanks for the many replies and valuable information. I have spoke to the LR several times regarding this issue, each time I receive a sympathetic ear from the agent on the phone after explaining in full the efforts that i have put in in trying to locate anyone from this company or from their now closed solicitors office, i have sent all information from their website which tells anyone that this company no longer operates and that there is no further contact details, on companies house i located the 2 directors and rang them but the phones just went dead? The LR have asked that the creditor be contacted but this is not possible and so i go around in circles.. i think my only option is to go to the court and explain my case and see what they can do? I note from the thread replies that the LR have a their own in house legal dept to look at this, the agents on the LR phones tell me that their supervisor will review it and tell me what to do, but they say the same thing repeatedly and this is that they cannot just remove the restriction of which i understand, but i cannot give them what they ask, i put this to a high street solicitor and he just said that this was a new one to him and for £1000 up front he will ‘see what he can do’.

a dilemma 

You've pulled together a lot in terms of what you can be expected to have done at this point. I don't think the LR should be creating a circular argument by telling you that you need to contact the creditor when you've already told them that you are unable to. And they shouldn't be telling you that they can't just remove the restriction as that isn't what you're asking - you're asking for it to be removed because your research indicates that the creditor no longer exists. I'd suggest to call them again and be prepared to escalate, in writing if necessary, and via a complaint if you have to. My understanding is that the way the process should work at the LR is that you send in the evidence that you have and they review it, probably via their in-house Legal. They would then decide if what you have sent is sufficient. I may be wrong, but I understand that this is what they would typically do in this type of situation, so I think that it is a case of getting in front of the right person. They may take time to look at it as they're running a large backlog at the moment, but they can expedite genuinely urgent requests.

On the legal side, it is very generous of the high street solicitor to offer for you to give them £1,000 so that they can educate themselves in the area, but it might be better to find a more specialised solicitor who would give a free initial consultation (some solicitors do) at which you could get guidance on the court process, what you need to provide to get the charge removed, timescale, cost, etc. As another poster mentioned, you should also check if you have any legal cover via insurance, etc.

gonefishing

Sadly, I can't give you any legal advice, but I have found that when dealing with a government department or local authority, it sometimes helps to involve a local Member of Parliament.  I'd be inclined to write a letter to the LR one more time, explaining your predicament, but clearly mark the letter to indicate that a copy has been sent to your MP.  You should then send a copy of the letter, with a covering letter to your local MP.

Whilst I've no idea if this will help, under the circumstances, I don't suppose it will do any harm.  If nothing else, it might ensure the LR take a proper look at your situation.  Nobody will want to be the person who didn't respond fully and correctly to a matter under the scrutiny of an MP, so hopefully it is more likely to be escalated, within the LR.

Some MP's are better than others at responding to correspondence, but in the first instance use a "Signed For" postal service, backed up by an email.

Google AI says:

"HM Land Registry is part of the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government. Chief Executive and Chief Land Registrar Simon Hayes is responsible to Secretary of State Angela Rayner." 

After you've done a bit more googling to check AI is correct, I'd be inclined to send copies to both Simon Hayes and Angela Rayner and to mark your letter to the LR accordingly. 

 

Seeing cc. Angela Rayner at the bottom of a letter addressed to me would certainly get my attention lol.

Good luck.

Land_Registry

TomThumb2 said:

Land_Registry said:

silvercar said:

Paging @Land_Registry

Pretty sure the OP is already aware re what's required from a registration perspective for this one. Either the creditor discharges it or the OP goes back to court to get it dismissed and then applies to update the register as appropriate. Hopefully they are on the right track as a result

Is that 100% the Land Registry position that the only evidence they would accept is a court order and not evidence that the creditor isn't responding/can't be traced?

Whilst every application is treated on merit a discharge or order dismissing the charge is clear cut. If there is any doubt then it's for the court to assess and pass judgement and not ourselves in the vast majority of cases. 
Resolving such matters, without the participation of the actual creditor, is very much a legal issue rather than a registration one hence the options as stated

TomThumb2

Land_Registry said:

TomThumb2 said:

Land_Registry said:

silvercar said:

Paging @Land_Registry

Pretty sure the OP is already aware re what's required from a registration perspective for this one. Either the creditor discharges it or the OP goes back to court to get it dismissed and then applies to update the register as appropriate. Hopefully they are on the right track as a result

Is that 100% the Land Registry position that the only evidence they would accept is a court order and not evidence that the creditor isn't responding/can't be traced?

Whilst every application is treated on merit a discharge or order dismissing the charge is clear cut. If there is any doubt then it's for the court to assess and pass judgement and not ourselves in the vast majority of cases. 
Resolving such matters, without the participation of the actual creditor, is very much a legal issue rather than a registration one hence the options as stated

Thanks, so not 100% the case that the LR would only accept a court order. The options are for standard cases and this case, whilst not completely uncommon, isn't clear cut so the usual options don't all apply - clearly there can be no creditor participation if the creditor doesn't exist or can't be found.

My understanding is that in cases like this, the LR will consider the available evidence and has its own in-house Legal who will be involved in making any decisions in relation to removal of the charge. That is why I'd advise the OP contact and escalate within the LR. If I'm wrong and the LR will only consider a court order having seen the evidence then they will be able to advise the OP of that definitively.

As the situation isn't completely clear and the LR might take some time the OP may want to consider taking some initial legal advice from a lawyer experienced in the area to understand this and other options as going the court route shouldn't be done lightly, particularly if there is scope for the LR to resolve.

gonefishing

On reading the LR response above, it would appear there is scope for resolving this predicament "maybe" without the need to go to court. I am guessing escalation is likely to be the key to achieving a solution, so definitely contact your local MP.