Approaching crunch time

Altior

sheramber said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

peteuk said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Well JSA is only 6 months of payments now and I'm not sure about any grace period of looking for jobs in certain areas.  £92.05/wk

ESA is a year of payments, unless you're assessed as having Limited Capability for Work and Work-Related Activity (i.e. being put in the Support Group) and then it's indefinite.  You won't be made to look for work but you may have to engage in work-related activity which may include going to appointments and possibly going on courses, unless put into the Support Group.  £92.05/wk, rising to £140.55 after 13 weeks if you are put into the Support Group after assessment.

Universal Credit has replaced income-based JSA and is only available if you have below £16,000 in savings in total (disregarding any money in pension schemes).  Basic levels of help similar to above but reduced by savings between £6,000 and £16,000 and any other income.

You are right that leaving work because of health conditions would be accepted as good reason, but as the previous poster says financially it will be much better to stay for as long as you can.  I also don't think leaving for health reasons is compatible with JSA, you would have to claim ESA.  Although not being required to look for work doesn't mean you're not allowed to, you would be able to on your own terms.

But is the OP leaving because of their health conditions, they suggest they are fully capable of forfilling the role, just from home whcih the company currently doesnt allow...although I suspect the OP has done so since 2020, given the scant info I question why now is this an issue. 

OP I get you dont want to fully disclose your medical problems, 100% but it is extreemly difficult to give you the full and correct advice without know the full details, so therefore I would expect a level of the advice is not 100% accurate to be taken into account.  

How do you function in a day to day basis, shopping etc. Who paid for the OH review, does your employer accept this report and its "indepenant" finding?  Did you ever go back to the office after covid. 

As I understand it they're just fine doing their job from home, which they have done for 5+ years, it's just they can sense the employer for some reason wanting return to office, and are now investigating their options should work insist on no longer working from home.  If the updated OH assessment were to recommend continuing to WFH, I've already outlined the employer's options (accept, or refuse and have OP off sick and have to go through the capability process.  Or they could in theory accept and then find some other reason to terminate OP's employment - but they'd still have to justify that).

I don't think it matters how OP manages in other areas of life, because clearly the medical professionals involved decided that WFH was necessary - and OP evidently agrees since the prospect of having to return to the office is making them seriously consider leaving.  I don't understand why anyone here would question that.

the OP may be 'just fine' working from hime but the employer, for some reason, is not.

Without knowing why the employer wants the OP to return to the office  no one can say whether  the employer is warranted in wanting the OP back in the office.

Effectively the way it went was, we got a new functional boss, recruited externally. They were going to the office and it was virtually empty. So the rules were updated and hybrid working to a certain proportion as a minimum was made mandatory. It doesn't impact the day to day role at all, arguably it's easier to work from home without office distractions. However, they are now in charge and they wanted to make their mark. 

Spoonie_Turtle

Altior said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Well JSA is only 6 months of payments now and I'm not sure about any grace period of looking for jobs in certain areas.  £92.05/wk

ESA is a year of payments, unless you're assessed as having Limited Capability for Work and Work-Related Activity (i.e. being put in the Support Group) and then it's indefinite.  You won't be made to look for work but you may have to engage in work-related activity which may include going to appointments and possibly going on courses, unless put into the Support Group.  £92.05/wk, rising to £140.55 after 13 weeks if you are put into the Support Group after assessment.

Universal Credit has replaced income-based JSA and is only available if you have below £16,000 in savings in total (disregarding any money in pension schemes).  Basic levels of help similar to above but reduced by savings between £6,000 and £16,000 and any other income.

You are right that leaving work because of health conditions would be accepted as good reason, but as the previous poster says financially it will be much better to stay for as long as you can.  I also don't think leaving for health reasons is compatible with JSA, you would have to claim ESA.  Although not being required to look for work doesn't mean you're not allowed to, you would be able to on your own terms.

Thanks. 

If it's £16K max savings for ESA or JSA, I won't be able to get either anyway 

No there's no savings limit for ESA or JSA, only UC.

Your workplace's 'reason' for wanting people back sounds very familiar.  It's happening to a lot of people who can keep working without any problem if they're WFH, but won't be able to continue if they're arbitrarily forced to go into an office regularly.

KxMx

Altior said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Well JSA is only 6 months of payments now and I'm not sure about any grace period of looking for jobs in certain areas.  £92.05/wk

ESA is a year of payments, unless you're assessed as having Limited Capability for Work and Work-Related Activity (i.e. being put in the Support Group) and then it's indefinite.  You won't be made to look for work but you may have to engage in work-related activity which may include going to appointments and possibly going on courses, unless put into the Support Group.  £92.05/wk, rising to £140.55 after 13 weeks if you are put into the Support Group after assessment.

Universal Credit has replaced income-based JSA and is only available if you have below £16,000 in savings in total (disregarding any money in pension schemes).  Basic levels of help similar to above but reduced by savings between £6,000 and £16,000 and any other income.

You are right that leaving work because of health conditions would be accepted as good reason, but as the previous poster says financially it will be much better to stay for as long as you can.  I also don't think leaving for health reasons is compatible with JSA, you would have to claim ESA.  Although not being required to look for work doesn't mean you're not allowed to, you would be able to on your own terms.

Thanks. 

If it's £16K max savings for ESA or JSA, I won't be able to get either anyway 

Both are Contributions Based benefits so not impacted by savings of £16k.

Grumpy_chap

Altior said:

Another factor is that I have substantial savings, in the tens of thousands. Some locked away in long term cash bonds. 

Capital / savings above £6k will reduce means-tested benefits and above £16k will cease eligibility for means-tested benefits.

It is permitted to use capital / savings to repay pre-existing debts and that is not classed as deprivation of capital.  That might bring you within the limits that apply for means-tested benefits.

Not all benefits are means-tested.

It remains worth pursuing options with the current employer for a continuation of the reasonable adjustments.

HillStreetBlues

I think the company has to tread very carefully, if everyone agreed WFH was a reasonable adjustment and they just remove it, then I feel it leaves them open to an Employment Tribunal.

peteuk

Spoonie_Turtle said:

peteuk said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Well JSA is only 6 months of payments now and I'm not sure about any grace period of looking for jobs in certain areas.  £92.05/wk

ESA is a year of payments, unless you're assessed as having Limited Capability for Work and Work-Related Activity (i.e. being put in the Support Group) and then it's indefinite.  You won't be made to look for work but you may have to engage in work-related activity which may include going to appointments and possibly going on courses, unless put into the Support Group.  £92.05/wk, rising to £140.55 after 13 weeks if you are put into the Support Group after assessment.

Universal Credit has replaced income-based JSA and is only available if you have below £16,000 in savings in total (disregarding any money in pension schemes).  Basic levels of help similar to above but reduced by savings between £6,000 and £16,000 and any other income.

You are right that leaving work because of health conditions would be accepted as good reason, but as the previous poster says financially it will be much better to stay for as long as you can.  I also don't think leaving for health reasons is compatible with JSA, you would have to claim ESA.  Although not being required to look for work doesn't mean you're not allowed to, you would be able to on your own terms.

But is the OP leaving because of their health conditions, they suggest they are fully capable of forfilling the role, just from home whcih the company currently doesnt allow...although I suspect the OP has done so since 2020, given the scant info I question why now is this an issue. 

OP I get you dont want to fully disclose your medical problems, 100% but it is extreemly difficult to give you the full and correct advice without know the full details, so therefore I would expect a level of the advice is not 100% accurate to be taken into account.  

How do you function in a day to day basis, shopping etc. Who paid for the OH review, does your employer accept this report and its "indepenant" finding?  Did you ever go back to the office after covid. 

As I understand it they're just fine doing their job from home, which they have done for 5+ years, it's just they can sense the employer for some reason wanting return to office, and are now investigating their options should work insist on no longer working from home.  If the updated OH assessment were to recommend continuing to WFH, I've already outlined the employer's options (accept, or refuse and have OP off sick and have to go through the capability process.  Or they could in theory accept and then find some other reason to terminate OP's employment - but they'd still have to justify that).

I don't think it matters how OP manages in other areas of life, because clearly the medical professionals involved decided that WFH was necessary - and OP evidently agrees since the prospect of having to return to the office is making them seriously consider leaving.  I don't understand why anyone here would question that.

@Spoonie_Turtle I asked as it would give more of an idea of the situation without the Op further disclosing their medical info.  As you know there’s a difference between cant and dont when it comes to leaving the house.  Which I would imagine the employer will consider as a factor when applying reasonable adjustments to home working.  Eg if you go out every Saturday do the shopping/socialise then why can’t you come into the office 2 or 3 times a week, as a posed to the only time you leave the house is for hospital appointments then the hybrid wfh option needs adjusting.  

My wife has a 3/2 hybrid work pattern (3 office days/2 wfh) but she has a long term health issue and her works menopause policy allows a greater flexibility in the 3/2.  So the week before her treatment, 3/2 becomes 0/5.  But if she feels well enough she will go in.  Equally she’s not 100% bound to the 3/2, so if she’s had a crap night she can teams her manager and say I’m working from home.  

As the op has said, there boss told them to go home and the company has allowed them to wfh.  The new hire has other opinions but regardless of this the president has been set.

Spoonie_Turtle

peteuk said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

peteuk said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Well JSA is only 6 months of payments now and I'm not sure about any grace period of looking for jobs in certain areas.  £92.05/wk

ESA is a year of payments, unless you're assessed as having Limited Capability for Work and Work-Related Activity (i.e. being put in the Support Group) and then it's indefinite.  You won't be made to look for work but you may have to engage in work-related activity which may include going to appointments and possibly going on courses, unless put into the Support Group.  £92.05/wk, rising to £140.55 after 13 weeks if you are put into the Support Group after assessment.

Universal Credit has replaced income-based JSA and is only available if you have below £16,000 in savings in total (disregarding any money in pension schemes).  Basic levels of help similar to above but reduced by savings between £6,000 and £16,000 and any other income.

You are right that leaving work because of health conditions would be accepted as good reason, but as the previous poster says financially it will be much better to stay for as long as you can.  I also don't think leaving for health reasons is compatible with JSA, you would have to claim ESA.  Although not being required to look for work doesn't mean you're not allowed to, you would be able to on your own terms.

But is the OP leaving because of their health conditions, they suggest they are fully capable of forfilling the role, just from home whcih the company currently doesnt allow...although I suspect the OP has done so since 2020, given the scant info I question why now is this an issue. 

OP I get you dont want to fully disclose your medical problems, 100% but it is extreemly difficult to give you the full and correct advice without know the full details, so therefore I would expect a level of the advice is not 100% accurate to be taken into account.  

How do you function in a day to day basis, shopping etc. Who paid for the OH review, does your employer accept this report and its "indepenant" finding?  Did you ever go back to the office after covid. 

As I understand it they're just fine doing their job from home, which they have done for 5+ years, it's just they can sense the employer for some reason wanting return to office, and are now investigating their options should work insist on no longer working from home.  If the updated OH assessment were to recommend continuing to WFH, I've already outlined the employer's options (accept, or refuse and have OP off sick and have to go through the capability process.  Or they could in theory accept and then find some other reason to terminate OP's employment - but they'd still have to justify that).

I don't think it matters how OP manages in other areas of life, because clearly the medical professionals involved decided that WFH was necessary - and OP evidently agrees since the prospect of having to return to the office is making them seriously consider leaving.  I don't understand why anyone here would question that.

@Spoonie_Turtle I asked as it would give more of an idea of the situation without the Op further disclosing their medical info.  As you know there’s a difference between cant and dont when it comes to leaving the house.  Which I would imagine the employer will consider as a factor when applying reasonable adjustments to home working.  Eg if you go out every Saturday do the shopping/socialise then why can’t you come into the office 2 or 3 times a week, as a posed to the only time you leave the house is for hospital appointments then the hybrid wfh option needs adjusting.  

…

As the op has said, there boss told them to go home and the company has allowed them to wfh.  The new hire has other opinions but regardless of this the president has been set.

Yes but as you also know, there's a huge difference between being able to do something once a week, vs being able to work even part-time.  Let alone going to work in an office.

born_again

HillStreetBlues said:

I think the company has to tread very carefully, if everyone agreed WFH was a reasonable adjustment and they just remove it, then I feel it leaves them open to an Employment Tribunal.

A lot of companies never updated contracts. So in effect you are working from home purely on their good will, & they should have no issue requesting people to return to the office.
So if OP worked in office pre covid, then it could be a awkward situation.

But they need to stick it out & make the employer do the dirty, not walk..

We have a few that are trying to argue that they should not come back into the office, currently a 60% in office & 40% at home. Yet they happily worked in office pre covid. 
Not looking good for them, as contract is the same as pre covid. Never even updated to mention WFH.

Altior

There's some irony in that I was pretty healthy pre lockdown, but pretty overweight.

As I mentioned, I am autistic (mild, but seems to be progressing negatively as I age), work was dead initially in lockdown and obviously there wasn't much to do. So I set myself a target to lose weight. I achieved my target by the September of 2020. It could easily be entirely coincidental but all of my physical health issues started after I lost all the weight. It is ironic as all the medical advice typically would be to lose weight (if overweight) to improve long term health. 

wfh was permitted before lockdown but limited. As a business we were able to flip to remote working easily, as we were all already set up to be able to do it. The challenges were the domestic circumstances of colleagues, shared houses and whatnot. Getting the necessary work done remotely is easily achievable.

I feel like I will stick with it for now and see how things progress. It seems to me that they initiated the original OH assessment, and might be on a sticky wicket if they ignore the part of their report recommendations that suggested a follow up assessment. I can see it from their perspective, that there's no formal fully remote working permitted in my function (never has been), so they are probably uncomfortable with allowing it to persist indefinitely. Even though it's not through choice. 

fuzzzzy

As you said, they initiated the original OH assessment and the outcome of that was reasonable work from home adjustment and revisit after 6 months.

I would just sit tight and insist on the follow up OH assessment.