ESA/UC transitional protection and other points of confusion

leamingtonspaceman

Newcad said:

Thanks for your input @Yamor , the situation here is quite complicated and all help is welcome..

The timings seem to have been against this couple at every step.

Then the sudden mention of the earlier 'missing' Migration Notice from before they moved in together was somewhat of a curved ball.

I will DM you with some thoughts, I don't want to complicate this thread and confuse the OP further if I can avoid it.

@leamingtonspaceman If I could just ask you two questions here:

1- Does your wife have a date for her PIP tribunal yet?
2- Have you been to the Jobcentre and made a 'Claimant Commitment' for New Style ESA? NOT the one that you did for UC but a seperate one for New Style ESA?

Feel free to continue posting on the thread. It all helps to give us a greater understanding.

I was very confused to begin with, hence the title of the thread. However, as you and others have explained things it's all become clear now... or clearer perhaps is the best way to put it.

Everyone has to be confused at some point, that's the starting point of any learning.

I think it's obvious that even now, some contributors to the thread have different thoughts about this situation and what should/shouldn't have happened. That indicates to me how complex the system is because you are all knowledgeable people but in some instances have drawn differing conclusions.

As mentioned, with anything like this it's best to play completely dumb and to ask the most basic of questions in order to find out what's happening and get the best advice.

In answer to your questions:

1. No
2. No. Just UC. Neither has my wife. We were only asked to go in to start our UC claim, and again when we wanted to change our bank details. Does that 'Claimant Commitment' involve seeing a work coach and committing to looking for work? I don't think this applies to us as we're in the support group?

Sorry for the confusion regarding the original letter of 10th March not being mentioned before. Over the weekend just gone, when I checked the letter I received on 28th April, I then noticed it was a 'reminder' that referred to the first letter which I never received.

I had set up a redirection of mail just prior to 10th March in anticipation of my moving on 16th March. There were some regular letters that seem to have got 'lost' in the initial stages of that redirection so it looks like that original letter was a victim of that.

Actually, even now there are still some letters going to my old address, despite me informing everyone that needed to know of my new address and the redirection being in place.

I know I keep saying this, but I'm SO grateful to everyone who has contributed to this thread. To me, it's important to show gratitude and I am more than grateful.

Newcad

Just a couple of comments on your replies to my earlier questions.

1- As there is no tribunal date set yet then it could be months before your wife actually gets to tribunal.
    You cannot do anything about appealing for a TE until at least then.

2- If you had been moved from Old Style ESA to New Style ESA then you should have had a Clamant Commitment for ESA as well as the one for UC.

As it's over 3-months since you thought you had moved to NS ESA and you have not had a to make an ESA Clamant Commitment yet then your ESA was probably still Old Style ESA up until you claimed UC, in which case there is nothing to challenge on that point.
(You ESA should have been moved to NS ESA when you migrated to UC, so you will at some point have to do a ESA Claimant Commitment when they catch up, ESA can't keep up with all the migrations to UC that are going on at the moment).

On the point of not having a Work Coach in UC you still have a claimant Commitment, everybody on UC has to have one. There should be an entry on your journal from when you claimed that says "Claimant Commitments accepted".
Your own UC Claiment Commitment will say that you will look at your acount/journal often, do any actions that it asks you to do, and inform them of any changes. (Not jobseeking of course). something like this:

leamingtonspaceman

Newcad said:

Just a couple of comments on your replies to my earlier questions.

1- As there is no tribunal date set yet then it could be months before your wife actually gets to tribunal.
    You cannot do anything about appealing for a TE until at least then.

2- If you had been moved from Old Style ESA to New Style ESA then you should have had a Clamant Commitment for ESA as well as the one for UC.

As it's over 3-months since you thought you had moved to NS ESA and you have not had a to make an ESA Clamant Commitment yet then your ESA was probably still Old Style ESA up until you claimed UC, in which case there is nothing to challenge on that point.
(You ESA should have been moved to NS ESA when you migrated to UC, so you will at some point have to do a ESA Claimant Commitment when they catch up, ESA can't keep up with all the migrations to UC that are going on at the moment).

On the point of not having a Work Coach in UC you still have a claimant Commitment, everybody on UC has to have one. There should be an entry on your journal from when you claimed that says "Claimant Commitments accepted".
Your own UC Claiment Commitment will say that you will look at your acount/journal often, do any actions that it asks you to do, and inform them of any changes. (Not jobseeking of course). something like this:

Thanks for this. 

My wife claimed ESA from October of last year. She wasn't actually awarded it until February this year and it was backdated.

She was placed in the support group and was placed on contribution based ESA that she was told would run out after a year in October 2025.

So what type of ESA was/is she on? How many types of ESA are there? Old style/legacy, New Style, Contribution Based... create your own???

After reporting my change of circumstances, my ESA was reduced to the same amount as hers... £281.10 every fortnight.

I will say one thing. My wife and I are both highly qualified people. I'm a qualified psychotherapist. In a previous life, I worked in the automotive testing industry. I've taught English abroad. We're not stupid and do manage to negotiate every other aspect of our lives that involves other agencies and organisations.

But this, well... it's completely and utterly over-complicated and appears to both of us to be something that sets you up to fail and/or give up.

And for the DWP to use phrases like 'managed migration' and then seemingly do little if any actual 'managing', it makes it farcical.

I do appreciate all the help, and every time I get a response, I then think that I've understood it, only for something else to be mentioned that takes me two steps back again.

I thought that the idea of UC was to streamline the system and have just one benefit. So why are people moving to UC still going to be claiming ESA indefinitely and having that deducted from their UC?

It really doesn't make any sense to me and appears dichotomous and paradoxical.

Yamor

leamingtonspaceman said:

Newcad said:

Just a couple of comments on your replies to my earlier questions.

1- As there is no tribunal date set yet then it could be months before your wife actually gets to tribunal.
    You cannot do anything about appealing for a TE until at least then.

2- If you had been moved from Old Style ESA to New Style ESA then you should have had a Clamant Commitment for ESA as well as the one for UC.

As it's over 3-months since you thought you had moved to NS ESA and you have not had a to make an ESA Clamant Commitment yet then your ESA was probably still Old Style ESA up until you claimed UC, in which case there is nothing to challenge on that point.
(You ESA should have been moved to NS ESA when you migrated to UC, so you will at some point have to do a ESA Claimant Commitment when they catch up, ESA can't keep up with all the migrations to UC that are going on at the moment).

On the point of not having a Work Coach in UC you still have a claimant Commitment, everybody on UC has to have one. There should be an entry on your journal from when you claimed that says "Claimant Commitments accepted".
Your own UC Claiment Commitment will say that you will look at your acount/journal often, do any actions that it asks you to do, and inform them of any changes. (Not jobseeking of course). something like this:

Thanks for this. 

My wife claimed ESA from October of last year. She wasn't actually awarded it until February this year and it was backdated.

She was placed in the support group and was placed on contribution based ESA that she was told would run out after a year in October 2025.

So what type of ESA was/is she on? How many types of ESA are there? Old style/legacy, New Style, Contribution Based... create your own???

After reporting my change of circumstances, my ESA was reduced to the same amount as hers... £281.10 every fortnight.

I will say one thing. My wife and I are both highly qualified people. I'm a qualified psychotherapist. In a previous life, I worked in the automotive testing industry. I've taught English abroad. We're not stupid and do manage to negotiate every other aspect of our lives that involves other agencies and organisations.

But this, well... it's completely and utterly over-complicated and appears to both of us to be something that sets you up to fail and/or give up.

And for the DWP to use phrases like 'managed migration' and then seemingly do little if any actual 'managing', it makes it farcical.

I do appreciate all the help, and every time I get a response, I then think that I've understood it, only for something else to be mentioned that takes me two steps back again.

I thought that the idea of UC was to streamline the system and have just one benefit. So why are people moving to UC still going to be claiming ESA indefinitely and having that deducted from their UC?

It really doesn't make any sense to me and appears dichotomous and paradoxical.

Your wife will always have been on NS-ESA, as she only claimed recently, and all new ESA claims for some time now have been new-style.

Her ESA will not run out after a year, because she is in the support group. Only those in the work-related activity group are limited to one year.

Your ESA, between the time you moved in with your wife and your UC claim should have been old-style c-ESA. It should have then changed from when you claimed UC to NS-ESA. The amount of entitlement would not have changed though.

Prior to moving in with your wife, you would have been on old-style ESA, which was made up of both c-ESA and ir-ESA.

Just to explain the various types of ESA:
Originally when ESA was introduced, it had two forms: contributory ESA (c-ESA) and income-related ESA (ir-ESA). A person could have been entitled to either one, or to both forms.
With the introduction of UC, as and when people came under the UC system, the ir-ESA form was abolished, leaving only the contributory form, which became known as new-style ESA (NS-ESA).
There isn't much difference between c-ESA and NS-ESA, and the entitlement levels are exactly the same. The two main differences are:
1) The conditionality rules are slightly different (claimant commitment etc), with the rules for NS-ESA more closely aligned to the UC system of conditionality, and
2) The ability to become entitled to ir-ESA. If you are on c-ESA, and because of a change of circumstances can now theoretically get ir-ESA, then your award should be revised to include ir-ESA. Whereas if you are on NS-ESA, then it is impossible to add ir-ESA (you are expected to claim UC instead, which replaced ir-ESA).

KxMx

UC replaces 6 working age income related benefits. 

Income Related ESA is one of them. 

Contributions Based ESA/New Style ESA isn't. 

leamingtonspaceman

Thanks again for the posts... really helpful.

As I see it now:

- My wife was/is on New Style ESA
- I was on legacy IR ESA
- I moved in with my wife 
- I reported the change 
- I was moved to contribution based ESA
- I lost the SDP and EDP, as expected
- We made a joint UC claim as requested by DWP, this being a managed migration
- I lost standard TP, but that doesn't matter as there was nothing to protect *
- I have requested LCWRA
- I have requested carers element to begin from 5th of June, this being the AP2
- Should my wife's PIP tribunal be successful, she would have been claiming PIP when I moved in with her as it'll be backdated to October 2024
- This would mean we have TP regarding couples SDP #
- I need to request this be reinstated if her PIP tribunal is successful.

* Is this correct, or would my EDP have been protected by the standard TP?

# Would we both receive SDP payments? Mine being reinstated from when I moved in with my wife, hers being backdated to the time her PIP claim began?

Yamor

leamingtonspaceman said:

Thanks again for the posts... really helpful.

As I see it now:

- My wife was/is on New Style ESA
- I was on legacy IR ESA
- I moved in with my wife 
- I reported the change 
- I was moved to contribution based ESA
- I lost the SDP and EDP, as expected
- We made a joint UC claim as requested by DWP, this being a managed migration
- I lost standard TP, but that doesn't matter as there was nothing to protect *
- I have requested LCWRA
- I have requested carers element to begin from 5th of June, this being the AP2
- Should my wife's PIP tribunal be successful, she would have been claiming PIP when I moved in with her as it'll be backdated to October 2024
- This would mean we have TP regarding couples SDP #
- I need to request this be reinstated if her PIP tribunal is successful.

* Is this correct, or would my EDP have been protected by the standard TP?

# Would we both receive SDP payments? Mine being reinstated from when I moved in with my wife, hers being backdated to the time her PIP claim began?

I'll try and go through your points in order:

- My wife was/is on New Style ESA
- I was on legacy IR ESA

Correct, although you also had some entitlement to c-ESA.
The way it works on old-style ESA is that they carry out two calculations, one for each of c-ESA and ir-ESA, and then you receive the full amount of the c-ESA (if any), topped up by the ir-ESA if it comes to more than the c-ESA calculation.
In your case, your c-ESA entitlement (£138.20/week) was lower than your ir-ESA entitlement (£240.55/week), so you were entitled to £138.20 of c-ESA, and £102.35 of ir-ESA.

- I moved in with my wife 
- I reported the change 
- I was moved to contribution based ESA
- I lost the SDP and EDP, as expected

Correct, but it is worth understanding how exactly this worked:
- Firstly, remember that the SDP and EDP are only provided for ir-ESA, not c-ESA.
- Secondly, remember that your wife's income only affects your ir-ESA, but not your c-ESA.
Then:
- You lost entitlement to the SDP simply because you lived with someone else who was not on PIP.
- Your entitlement to the EDP continued, however your wife's income (her ESA) reduced the level of your ir-ESA entitlement to a level below your c-ESA entitlement, meaning you simply received c-ESA which does not include the EDP. You still had an underlying entitlement to an ir-ESA which included the EDP, but it wasn't paid, as it was lower than your c-ESA entitlement.

- We made a joint UC claim as requested by DWP, this being a managed migration
- I lost standard TP, but that doesn't matter as there was nothing to protect *

* Is this correct, or would my EDP have been protected by the standard TP?

You had received a migration notice because it was issued when you were still actually entitled to ir-ESA. Had you called them after moving in with your wife and told them that you were no longer actually entitled to ir-ESA, they would have likely agreed to cancel the migration notice.
In fact, had you not claimed UC, nothing would have actually happened by the migration deadline you were given, because you were no longer entitled to ir-ESA.

You were not entitled to the regular TP protection for three reasons:
- You were not both issued migration notices.
- You claimed UC as a couple, whereas the migration notice was issued to you when you were entitled to ESA as a single person.
- There was nothing to protect, as you were only getting c-ESA, and that continued.

The EDP is something which can be protected by the regular TP, but wasn't relevant in your case, because you weren't actually getting any ir-ESA.

- I have requested LCWRA
- I have requested carers element to begin from 5th of June, this being the AP2

That is good, and should mean that your UC entitlement in AP1 will remain nil, but you should get £34.95/month from AP2 onwards.

- Should my wife's PIP tribunal be successful, she would have been claiming PIP when I moved in with her as it'll be backdated to October 2024
- This would mean we have TP regarding couples SDP #
- I need to request this be reinstated if her PIP tribunal is successful.

# Would we both receive SDP payments? Mine being reinstated from when I moved in with my wife, hers being backdated to the time her PIP claim began?

If and when your wife wins her appeal, you need to first contact ESA, and ask them to revise their decision to remove your ir-ESA as from 21st March (which was presumably the start of the benefit week following the date you moved in together), on the grounds that she was on PIP, and therefore you became entitled to the higher-rate SDP. This meant that your ir-ESA changed from £240.55 to £244.50 upon moving in with her.
As this is now a beneficial change of circumstances, they should make the change effective from a week earlier - i.e., 14th March.
(Although normally beneficial changes have to be reported within a month, that shouldn't be an issue, because she had not yet been awarded PIP, so they should agree to extend the time to report the change of circumstances.)

Then, you should contact UC and ask them to revise their decision on your AP1 (and subsequent APs), on the grounds that you were entitled to the SDP immediately prior to migrating, and you were therefore entitled to the Transitional SDP Element (and an additional amount for the EDP).

On your last question about both being entitled to SDP: your wife can never become entitled to SDP, as she was on NS-ESA. However, your ir-ESA should include the higher-rate SDP, which is double the single person rate, effective from when you moved in together, as above.

Once this is all done, your UC entitlement in AP1 should increase from nil to £447.37, and your entitlement in AP2 and going forwards should increase from £34.95 to £447.37

leamingtonspaceman

My wife has just received a message in her journal asking for a 'fit-note' because she has not had a work capability assessment:

"When you applied for Universal Credit we told you that you did not need to provide a fit note.

We have since found that you have not yet had a Work Capability Assessment outcome for your health condition.

A Work Capability Assessment is something we refer you for when you have an ongoing health condition that restricts your ability to work.

What this means.

You must now get a fit note from your GP or healthcare professional, if you still have a health condition or disability which restricts your ability to work.

You are allowed to self-certify for the first 7 days when you tell us you are not fit for work.

The start date of your fit note should be the date you made your Universal Credit claim plus 7 days. For example, 14 March + 7 days would be a fit note start date of 21 March.

Report a fit note in your Universal Credit account.

What happens next.

If you do not provide a fit note, or a good reason for failing to do so, we will consider you to be capable for work.

This means you may be asked to look for, and be available for, work and work-related activity.

You must continue to provide a fit note until either:

- you tell us your health condition no longer restricts your ability to work

or

- you have a health assessment decision

If you need to contact us, send a message using your journal."

She had her work capability assessment in February as part of her ESA assessment and as a result was placed in the support group.

She's going to reply with this information.

leamingtonspaceman

Yamor said:

leamingtonspaceman said:

Thanks again for the posts... really helpful.

As I see it now:

- My wife was/is on New Style ESA
- I was on legacy IR ESA
- I moved in with my wife 
- I reported the change 
- I was moved to contribution based ESA
- I lost the SDP and EDP, as expected
- We made a joint UC claim as requested by DWP, this being a managed migration
- I lost standard TP, but that doesn't matter as there was nothing to protect *
- I have requested LCWRA
- I have requested carers element to begin from 5th of June, this being the AP2
- Should my wife's PIP tribunal be successful, she would have been claiming PIP when I moved in with her as it'll be backdated to October 2024
- This would mean we have TP regarding couples SDP #
- I need to request this be reinstated if her PIP tribunal is successful.

* Is this correct, or would my EDP have been protected by the standard TP?

# Would we both receive SDP payments? Mine being reinstated from when I moved in with my wife, hers being backdated to the time her PIP claim began?

I'll try and go through your points in order:

- My wife was/is on New Style ESA
- I was on legacy IR ESA

Correct, although you also had some entitlement to c-ESA.
The way it works on old-style ESA is that they carry out two calculations, one for each of c-ESA and ir-ESA, and then you receive the full amount of the c-ESA (if any), topped up by the ir-ESA if it comes to more than the c-ESA calculation.
In your case, your c-ESA entitlement (£138.20/week) was lower than your ir-ESA entitlement (£240.55/week), so you were entitled to £138.20 of c-ESA, and £102.35 of ir-ESA.

- I moved in with my wife 
- I reported the change 
- I was moved to contribution based ESA
- I lost the SDP and EDP, as expected

Correct, but it is worth understanding how exactly this worked:
- Firstly, remember that the SDP and EDP are only provided for ir-ESA, not c-ESA.
- Secondly, remember that your wife's income only affects your ir-ESA, but not your c-ESA.
Then:
- You lost entitlement to the SDP simply because you lived with someone else who was not on PIP.
- Your entitlement to the EDP continued, however your wife's income (her ESA) reduced the level of your ir-ESA entitlement to a level below your c-ESA entitlement, meaning you simply received c-ESA which does not include the EDP. You still had an underlying entitlement to an ir-ESA which included the EDP, but it wasn't paid, as it was lower than your c-ESA entitlement.

- We made a joint UC claim as requested by DWP, this being a managed migration
- I lost standard TP, but that doesn't matter as there was nothing to protect *

* Is this correct, or would my EDP have been protected by the standard TP?

You had received a migration notice because it was issued when you were still actually entitled to ir-ESA. Had you called them after moving in with your wife and told them that you were no longer actually entitled to ir-ESA, they would have likely agreed to cancel the migration notice.
In fact, had you not claimed UC, nothing would have actually happened by the migration deadline you were given, because you were no longer entitled to ir-ESA.

You were not entitled to the regular TP protection for three reasons:
- You were not both issued migration notices.
- You claimed UC as a couple, whereas the migration notice was issued to you when you were entitled to ESA as a single person.
- There was nothing to protect, as you were only getting c-ESA, and that continued.

The EDP is something which can be protected by the regular TP, but wasn't relevant in your case, because you weren't actually getting any ir-ESA.

- I have requested LCWRA
- I have requested carers element to begin from 5th of June, this being the AP2

That is good, and should mean that your UC entitlement in AP1 will remain nil, but you should get £34.95/month from AP2 onwards.

- Should my wife's PIP tribunal be successful, she would have been claiming PIP when I moved in with her as it'll be backdated to October 2024
- This would mean we have TP regarding couples SDP #
- I need to request this be reinstated if her PIP tribunal is successful.

# Would we both receive SDP payments? Mine being reinstated from when I moved in with my wife, hers being backdated to the time her PIP claim began?

If and when your wife wins her appeal, you need to first contact ESA, and ask them to revise their decision to remove your ir-ESA as from 21st March (which was presumably the start of the benefit week following the date you moved in together), on the grounds that she was on PIP, and therefore you became entitled to the higher-rate SDP. This meant that your ir-ESA changed from £240.55 to £244.50 upon moving in with her.
As this is now a beneficial change of circumstances, they should make the change effective from a week earlier - i.e., 14th March.
(Although normally beneficial changes have to be reported within a month, that shouldn't be an issue, because she had not yet been awarded PIP, so they should agree to extend the time to report the change of circumstances.)

Then, you should contact UC and ask them to revise their decision on your AP1 (and subsequent APs), on the grounds that you were entitled to the SDP immediately prior to migrating, and you were therefore entitled to the Transitional SDP Element (and an additional amount for the EDP).

On your last question about both being entitled to SDP: your wife can never become entitled to SDP, as she was on NS-ESA. However, your ir-ESA should include the higher-rate SDP, which is double the single person rate, effective from when you moved in together, as above.

Once this is all done, your UC entitlement in AP1 should increase from nil to £447.37, and your entitlement in AP2 and going forwards should increase from £34.95 to £447.37

Thank you for this...

It explains everything perfectly and succinctly.

I really do appreciate it more than you could possibly imagine.

leamingtonspaceman

I received this response in my UC journal:

"We have received a response from our Technical Team.

The move to UC notice was issued to you and at the time you were single and your ESA payment was that of a single claimant.

ESA rebuilt the claim due to a fault on 27.03.2025 as a couple claim. Your  ESA Claim became ESA Contributions based as, as a couple you exceeded the  Income related entitlement.

When the claimant became a couple, you didn't have housing costs. As per the UC Claim.

If we treat as change of circumstances - there is no Transitional payment protection entitlement.

If we didn't treat as change of circumstances and calculated TP, there would be no TP due as no migrating benefits, as the customer was no longer on HB or ESA IR.."

I also received a letter today from DWP relating to "New information about your care."

It states that they have been notified that my wife cares for me for 35 hours or more each week.

It goes on to say that "If your carer is receiving a carers benefit then you will no longer be eligible for SDP if you receive any of the following benefits":

The two benefits from the list that apply to me are:

IR ESA
CTB (we get roughly a 50% reduction in CT)

Is this all correct?

Also, has anyone any thoughts on the post I made above regarding my wife being asked to provide a fit-note?

Thank you...