ESA/UC transitional protection and other points of confusion

Yamor

I've come to this thread a bit late, but I don't think everything which has been said is correct.

Here are a few points:

1) It is irrelevant whether the migration notice was sent before you became a couple or after. In either case, the standard transitional protection cannot be applied because your wife did not receive a migration notice, and it is a condition for TP that you both have received migration notices.

2) You did not lose the EDP incorrectly after forming a couple, as your wife's NS-ESA would have reduced your ir-ESA entitlement to below your c-ESA entitlement. As such, the amount of your entitlement was correct.
It may well be that DWP wrongly moved you to NS-ESA at that point, but that doesn't matter from a legal decision-making perspective, as technically they are the same benefit, whatever DWP decide to call it. There is therefore nothing to appeal now. (I happen to think that, whatever they've told you now, they probably didn't actually move you to NS-ESA, but to c-ESA.)
If and when your wife is awarded PIP, then you would simply request a supersession of the decision to only award you c-ESA (or NS-ESA, whatever you want to call it) on the grounds that you actually continued to be entitled to some ir-ESA. If DWP try to argue that you were already on NS-ESA, then that can be dealt with as part of the appeal at that stage.

3) Although I said above that you are definitely not entitled to the standard TP, you will however become entitled to the Transitional SDP Element if your wife wins her appeal.

4) My advice would be to NOT put your wife as a carer for UC at the moment. That's because the amount of your UC entitlement if you were to do that is minimal (£34.95/month), whereas if your wife wins her appeal, then the extra Transitional SDP Element that you would get if she is not your carer, as compared to what you would get if she is your carer, would be about £340/month more, compared to £201/month for the Carer Element.
Rather, let your UC stay nil, and if and when she wins her appeal, request a revision on the initial UC decision.
If you feel the chances of her winning her appeal are low, then you may prefer not to follow this advice...
Alternatively, your wife could report that she started caring for you from some point in your second AP (well, notionally the second AP, because you weren't actually entitled to UC in the first AP, at least at this stage). Doing that would mean you would get the £34.95 from AP2 onwards, but you would still get the higher Transitional SDP Element if and when she wins her appeal, albeit reduced from the second AP by the amount of the Carer Element. By doing this, you are ensuring that you are only losing one month's worth of £34.95 if she does lose her appeal.

leamingtonspaceman

Yamor said:

I've come to this thread a bit late, but I don't think everything which has been said is correct.

Here are a few points:

1) It is irrelevant whether the migration notice was sent before you became a couple or after. In either case, the standard transitional protection cannot be applied because your wife did not receive a migration notice, and it is a condition for TP that you both have received migration notices.

2) You did not lose the EDP incorrectly after forming a couple, as your wife's NS-ESA would have reduced your ir-ESA entitlement to below your c-ESA entitlement. As such, the amount of your entitlement was correct.
It may well be that DWP wrongly moved you to NS-ESA at that point, but that doesn't matter from a legal decision-making perspective, as technically they are the same benefit, whatever DWP decide to call it. There is therefore nothing to appeal now. (I happen to think that, whatever they've told you now, they probably didn't actually move you to NS-ESA, but to c-ESA.)
If and when your wife is awarded PIP, then you would simply request a supersession of the decision to only award you c-ESA (or NS-ESA, whatever you want to call it) on the grounds that you actually continued to be entitled to some ir-ESA. If DWP try to argue that you were already on NS-ESA, then that can be dealt with as part of the appeal at that stage.

3) Although I said above that you are definitely not entitled to the standard TP, you will however become entitled to the Transitional SDP Element if your wife wins her appeal.

4) My advice would be to NOT put your wife as a carer for UC at the moment. That's because the amount of your UC entitlement if you were to do that is minimal (£34.95/month), whereas if your wife wins her appeal, then the extra Transitional SDP Element that you would get if she is not your carer, as compared to what you would get if she is your carer, would be about £340/month more, compared to £201/month for the Carer Element.
Rather, let your UC stay nil, and if and when she wins her appeal, request a revision on the initial UC decision.
If you feel the chances of her winning her appeal are low, then you may prefer not to follow this advice...
Alternatively, your wife could report that she started caring for you from some point in your second AP (well, notionally the second AP, because you weren't actually entitled to UC in the first AP, at least at this stage). Doing that would mean you would get the £34.95 from AP2 onwards, but you would still get the higher Transitional SDP Element if and when she wins her appeal, albeit reduced from the second AP by the amount of the Carer Element. By doing this, you are ensuring that you are only losing one month's worth of £34.95 if she does lose her appeal.

Crikey...

Just when I thought I understood what had happened, this completely confuses me again.

As I understand it, my wife would not have received a migration notice, because she was and is on New Style ESA?

Before I even begin to try and understand this, can I ask what an AP/AP2 is?

Also, are you saying that there are TWO transitional elements, a 'standard' one and another that protects the SDP?

HillStreetBlues

leamingtonspaceman said:

Before I even begin to try and understand this, can I ask what an AP/AP2 is?

Assessment Periods,  if you claim on the 2nd  your AP will be 2nd to the 1st of the month. AP2 would be your second assessment period.

Yamor

leamingtonspaceman said:

Yamor said:

I've come to this thread a bit late, but I don't think everything which has been said is correct.

Here are a few points:

1) It is irrelevant whether the migration notice was sent before you became a couple or after. In either case, the standard transitional protection cannot be applied because your wife did not receive a migration notice, and it is a condition for TP that you both have received migration notices.

2) You did not lose the EDP incorrectly after forming a couple, as your wife's NS-ESA would have reduced your ir-ESA entitlement to below your c-ESA entitlement. As such, the amount of your entitlement was correct.
It may well be that DWP wrongly moved you to NS-ESA at that point, but that doesn't matter from a legal decision-making perspective, as technically they are the same benefit, whatever DWP decide to call it. There is therefore nothing to appeal now. (I happen to think that, whatever they've told you now, they probably didn't actually move you to NS-ESA, but to c-ESA.)
If and when your wife is awarded PIP, then you would simply request a supersession of the decision to only award you c-ESA (or NS-ESA, whatever you want to call it) on the grounds that you actually continued to be entitled to some ir-ESA. If DWP try to argue that you were already on NS-ESA, then that can be dealt with as part of the appeal at that stage.

3) Although I said above that you are definitely not entitled to the standard TP, you will however become entitled to the Transitional SDP Element if your wife wins her appeal.

4) My advice would be to NOT put your wife as a carer for UC at the moment. That's because the amount of your UC entitlement if you were to do that is minimal (£34.95/month), whereas if your wife wins her appeal, then the extra Transitional SDP Element that you would get if she is not your carer, as compared to what you would get if she is your carer, would be about £340/month more, compared to £201/month for the Carer Element.
Rather, let your UC stay nil, and if and when she wins her appeal, request a revision on the initial UC decision.
If you feel the chances of her winning her appeal are low, then you may prefer not to follow this advice...
Alternatively, your wife could report that she started caring for you from some point in your second AP (well, notionally the second AP, because you weren't actually entitled to UC in the first AP, at least at this stage). Doing that would mean you would get the £34.95 from AP2 onwards, but you would still get the higher Transitional SDP Element if and when she wins her appeal, albeit reduced from the second AP by the amount of the Carer Element. By doing this, you are ensuring that you are only losing one month's worth of £34.95 if she does lose her appeal.

Crikey...

Just when I thought I understood what had happened, this completely confuses me again.

As I understand it, my wife would not have received a migration notice, because she was and is on New Style ESA?

Before I even begin to try and understand this, can I ask what an AP/AP2 is?

Also, are you saying that there are TWO transitional elements, a 'standard' one and another that protects the SDP?

Your wife didn't get a migration notice for two reasons: a) the migration notice was initially issued before you moved in together, and b) even after moving in together, you weren't then entitled to ir-ESA.
You got a migration notice despite b) because it was issued before you moved in together.
Had you moved in together before receiving the migration notice, and had your ir-ESA continued (for whatever reason), then you would have both received migration notices, despite only you being on ir-ESA.

"AP", as per HillStreetBlues, stands for Assessment Period, which is the basic time period of entitlement to Universal Credit. They are successive periods of a month, generally starting on the date you claimed UC.

There are two types of transitional protection, however, the Transitional SDP Element is only ever given to people not entitled to the regular Transitional Element.

leamingtonspaceman

Yamor said:

leamingtonspaceman said:

Yamor said:

I've come to this thread a bit late, but I don't think everything which has been said is correct.

Here are a few points:

1) It is irrelevant whether the migration notice was sent before you became a couple or after. In either case, the standard transitional protection cannot be applied because your wife did not receive a migration notice, and it is a condition for TP that you both have received migration notices.

2) You did not lose the EDP incorrectly after forming a couple, as your wife's NS-ESA would have reduced your ir-ESA entitlement to below your c-ESA entitlement. As such, the amount of your entitlement was correct.
It may well be that DWP wrongly moved you to NS-ESA at that point, but that doesn't matter from a legal decision-making perspective, as technically they are the same benefit, whatever DWP decide to call it. There is therefore nothing to appeal now. (I happen to think that, whatever they've told you now, they probably didn't actually move you to NS-ESA, but to c-ESA.)
If and when your wife is awarded PIP, then you would simply request a supersession of the decision to only award you c-ESA (or NS-ESA, whatever you want to call it) on the grounds that you actually continued to be entitled to some ir-ESA. If DWP try to argue that you were already on NS-ESA, then that can be dealt with as part of the appeal at that stage.

3) Although I said above that you are definitely not entitled to the standard TP, you will however become entitled to the Transitional SDP Element if your wife wins her appeal.

4) My advice would be to NOT put your wife as a carer for UC at the moment. That's because the amount of your UC entitlement if you were to do that is minimal (£34.95/month), whereas if your wife wins her appeal, then the extra Transitional SDP Element that you would get if she is not your carer, as compared to what you would get if she is your carer, would be about £340/month more, compared to £201/month for the Carer Element.
Rather, let your UC stay nil, and if and when she wins her appeal, request a revision on the initial UC decision.
If you feel the chances of her winning her appeal are low, then you may prefer not to follow this advice...
Alternatively, your wife could report that she started caring for you from some point in your second AP (well, notionally the second AP, because you weren't actually entitled to UC in the first AP, at least at this stage). Doing that would mean you would get the £34.95 from AP2 onwards, but you would still get the higher Transitional SDP Element if and when she wins her appeal, albeit reduced from the second AP by the amount of the Carer Element. By doing this, you are ensuring that you are only losing one month's worth of £34.95 if she does lose her appeal.

Crikey...

Just when I thought I understood what had happened, this completely confuses me again.

As I understand it, my wife would not have received a migration notice, because she was and is on New Style ESA?

Before I even begin to try and understand this, can I ask what an AP/AP2 is?

Also, are you saying that there are TWO transitional elements, a 'standard' one and another that protects the SDP?

Your wife didn't get a migration notice for two reasons: a) the migration notice was initially issued before you moved in together, and b) even after moving in together, you weren't then entitled to ir-ESA.
You got a migration notice despite b) because it was issued before you moved in together.
Had you moved in together before receiving the migration notice, and had your ir-ESA continued (for whatever reason), then you would have both received migration notices, despite only you being on ir-ESA.

"AP", as per HillStreetBlues, stands for Assessment Period, which is the basic time period of entitlement to Universal Credit. They are successive periods of a month, generally starting on the date you claimed UC.

There are two types of transitional protection, however, the Transitional SDP Element is only ever given to people not entitled to the regular Transitional Element.

Thank you for this.

Right... this all makes sense to me now, and is how I thought it should work.

So effectively, I don't need to do anything now?

I'm guessing that the Transitional SDP element is only something that I should bring up when and if my wife is successful in her PIP tribunal?

Out of interest, what IS protected under the regular TP? I can't seem to identify anything that I was receiving that would have needed protecting apart from the SDP?

Yamor

leamingtonspaceman said:

Yamor said:

leamingtonspaceman said:

Yamor said:

I've come to this thread a bit late, but I don't think everything which has been said is correct.

Here are a few points:

1) It is irrelevant whether the migration notice was sent before you became a couple or after. In either case, the standard transitional protection cannot be applied because your wife did not receive a migration notice, and it is a condition for TP that you both have received migration notices.

2) You did not lose the EDP incorrectly after forming a couple, as your wife's NS-ESA would have reduced your ir-ESA entitlement to below your c-ESA entitlement. As such, the amount of your entitlement was correct.
It may well be that DWP wrongly moved you to NS-ESA at that point, but that doesn't matter from a legal decision-making perspective, as technically they are the same benefit, whatever DWP decide to call it. There is therefore nothing to appeal now. (I happen to think that, whatever they've told you now, they probably didn't actually move you to NS-ESA, but to c-ESA.)
If and when your wife is awarded PIP, then you would simply request a supersession of the decision to only award you c-ESA (or NS-ESA, whatever you want to call it) on the grounds that you actually continued to be entitled to some ir-ESA. If DWP try to argue that you were already on NS-ESA, then that can be dealt with as part of the appeal at that stage.

3) Although I said above that you are definitely not entitled to the standard TP, you will however become entitled to the Transitional SDP Element if your wife wins her appeal.

4) My advice would be to NOT put your wife as a carer for UC at the moment. That's because the amount of your UC entitlement if you were to do that is minimal (£34.95/month), whereas if your wife wins her appeal, then the extra Transitional SDP Element that you would get if she is not your carer, as compared to what you would get if she is your carer, would be about £340/month more, compared to £201/month for the Carer Element.
Rather, let your UC stay nil, and if and when she wins her appeal, request a revision on the initial UC decision.
If you feel the chances of her winning her appeal are low, then you may prefer not to follow this advice...
Alternatively, your wife could report that she started caring for you from some point in your second AP (well, notionally the second AP, because you weren't actually entitled to UC in the first AP, at least at this stage). Doing that would mean you would get the £34.95 from AP2 onwards, but you would still get the higher Transitional SDP Element if and when she wins her appeal, albeit reduced from the second AP by the amount of the Carer Element. By doing this, you are ensuring that you are only losing one month's worth of £34.95 if she does lose her appeal.

Crikey...

Just when I thought I understood what had happened, this completely confuses me again.

As I understand it, my wife would not have received a migration notice, because she was and is on New Style ESA?

Before I even begin to try and understand this, can I ask what an AP/AP2 is?

Also, are you saying that there are TWO transitional elements, a 'standard' one and another that protects the SDP?

Your wife didn't get a migration notice for two reasons: a) the migration notice was initially issued before you moved in together, and b) even after moving in together, you weren't then entitled to ir-ESA.
You got a migration notice despite b) because it was issued before you moved in together.
Had you moved in together before receiving the migration notice, and had your ir-ESA continued (for whatever reason), then you would have both received migration notices, despite only you being on ir-ESA.

"AP", as per HillStreetBlues, stands for Assessment Period, which is the basic time period of entitlement to Universal Credit. They are successive periods of a month, generally starting on the date you claimed UC.

There are two types of transitional protection, however, the Transitional SDP Element is only ever given to people not entitled to the regular Transitional Element.

Thank you for this.

Right... this all makes sense to me now, and is how I thought it should work.

So effectively, I don't need to do anything now?

I'm guessing that the Transitional SDP element is only something that I should bring up when and if my wife is successful in her PIP tribunal?

Out of interest, what IS protected under the regular TP? I can't seem to identify anything that I was receiving that would have needed protecting apart from the SDP?

If you think your wife's chances of winning are low, then you may want to report her caring now ASAP backdated to the start of your UC claim, and also get the LCWRA element added. This would ensure that you get the £34.95/month already, but would mean a lower overall entitlement if your wife wins her appeal, as I explained earlier.

Alternatively, if you wanted to go with my last suggestion, then you may wish to say now to UC that your wife started caring for you from a date which is more than a month after the date your UC claim started, i.e., not before 1st June.
This would enable you to get the £34.95/month for now from UC regardless of whether your wife wins her appeal or not, while still allowing you to get the higher entitlement if your wife wins her appeal.
The reason I'm not telling you to definitely do this is because it is skating slightly close to the line to say that she only started caring for you then, when there hasn't actually been any change at all in your circumstances at that point.

If you aren't going with either of the above routes, then yes, there is nothing to do right now. Although you could if you want work already on getting the LCWRA element added in preparation for when she wins her appeal. It wouldn't actually get you any money now, but it'll be one less thing to sort out after she wins her appeal.


As you say, the Transitional SDP Element will only be relevant after she wins her appeal, so there is no reason to bring it up now.


The regular TP is an overall protection comparing new benefit entitlement to old, taking any differences in the rules into account. In your case it happens to be that the only differences to take into account are the SDP and EDP entitlement (but reduced by the extra generosity of the LCWRA element as compared to the support group entitlement under the old system).
For that reason the Transitional SDP Element is not given to those entitled to the regular TP, as the loss of the SDP would already have been sorted by the regular TP.

leamingtonspaceman

Yamor said:

leamingtonspaceman said:

Yamor said:

leamingtonspaceman said:

Yamor said:

I've come to this thread a bit late, but I don't think everything which has been said is correct.

Here are a few points:

1) It is irrelevant whether the migration notice was sent before you became a couple or after. In either case, the standard transitional protection cannot be applied because your wife did not receive a migration notice, and it is a condition for TP that you both have received migration notices.

2) You did not lose the EDP incorrectly after forming a couple, as your wife's NS-ESA would have reduced your ir-ESA entitlement to below your c-ESA entitlement. As such, the amount of your entitlement was correct.
It may well be that DWP wrongly moved you to NS-ESA at that point, but that doesn't matter from a legal decision-making perspective, as technically they are the same benefit, whatever DWP decide to call it. There is therefore nothing to appeal now. (I happen to think that, whatever they've told you now, they probably didn't actually move you to NS-ESA, but to c-ESA.)
If and when your wife is awarded PIP, then you would simply request a supersession of the decision to only award you c-ESA (or NS-ESA, whatever you want to call it) on the grounds that you actually continued to be entitled to some ir-ESA. If DWP try to argue that you were already on NS-ESA, then that can be dealt with as part of the appeal at that stage.

3) Although I said above that you are definitely not entitled to the standard TP, you will however become entitled to the Transitional SDP Element if your wife wins her appeal.

4) My advice would be to NOT put your wife as a carer for UC at the moment. That's because the amount of your UC entitlement if you were to do that is minimal (£34.95/month), whereas if your wife wins her appeal, then the extra Transitional SDP Element that you would get if she is not your carer, as compared to what you would get if she is your carer, would be about £340/month more, compared to £201/month for the Carer Element.
Rather, let your UC stay nil, and if and when she wins her appeal, request a revision on the initial UC decision.
If you feel the chances of her winning her appeal are low, then you may prefer not to follow this advice...
Alternatively, your wife could report that she started caring for you from some point in your second AP (well, notionally the second AP, because you weren't actually entitled to UC in the first AP, at least at this stage). Doing that would mean you would get the £34.95 from AP2 onwards, but you would still get the higher Transitional SDP Element if and when she wins her appeal, albeit reduced from the second AP by the amount of the Carer Element. By doing this, you are ensuring that you are only losing one month's worth of £34.95 if she does lose her appeal.

Crikey...

Just when I thought I understood what had happened, this completely confuses me again.

As I understand it, my wife would not have received a migration notice, because she was and is on New Style ESA?

Before I even begin to try and understand this, can I ask what an AP/AP2 is?

Also, are you saying that there are TWO transitional elements, a 'standard' one and another that protects the SDP?

Your wife didn't get a migration notice for two reasons: a) the migration notice was initially issued before you moved in together, and b) even after moving in together, you weren't then entitled to ir-ESA.
You got a migration notice despite b) because it was issued before you moved in together.
Had you moved in together before receiving the migration notice, and had your ir-ESA continued (for whatever reason), then you would have both received migration notices, despite only you being on ir-ESA.

"AP", as per HillStreetBlues, stands for Assessment Period, which is the basic time period of entitlement to Universal Credit. They are successive periods of a month, generally starting on the date you claimed UC.

There are two types of transitional protection, however, the Transitional SDP Element is only ever given to people not entitled to the regular Transitional Element.

Thank you for this.

Right... this all makes sense to me now, and is how I thought it should work.

So effectively, I don't need to do anything now?

I'm guessing that the Transitional SDP element is only something that I should bring up when and if my wife is successful in her PIP tribunal?

Out of interest, what IS protected under the regular TP? I can't seem to identify anything that I was receiving that would have needed protecting apart from the SDP?

If you think your wife's chances of winning are low, then you may want to report her caring now ASAP backdated to the start of your UC claim, and also get the LCWRA element added. This would ensure that you get the £34.95/month already, but would mean a lower overall entitlement if your wife wins her appeal, as I explained earlier.

Alternatively, if you wanted to go with my last suggestion, then you may wish to say now to UC that your wife started caring for you from a date which is more than a month after the date your UC claim started, i.e., not before 1st June.
This would enable you to get the £34.95/month for now from UC regardless of whether your wife wins her appeal or not, while still allowing you to get the higher entitlement if your wife wins her appeal.
The reason I'm not telling you to definitely do this is because it is skating slightly close to the line to say that she only started caring for you then, when there hasn't actually been any change at all in your circumstances at that point.

If you aren't going with either of the above routes, then yes, there is nothing to do right now. Although you could if you want work already on getting the LCWRA element added in preparation for when she wins her appeal. It wouldn't actually get you any money now, but it'll be one less thing to sort out after she wins her appeal.


As you say, the Transitional SDP Element will only be relevant after she wins her appeal, so there is no reason to bring it up now.


The regular TP is an overall protection comparing new benefit entitlement to old, taking any differences in the rules into account. In your case it happens to be that the only differences to take into account are the SDP and EDP entitlement (but reduced by the extra generosity of the LCWRA element as compared to the support group entitlement under the old system).
For that reason the Transitional SDP Element is not given to those entitled to the regular TP, as the loss of the SDP would already have been sorted by the regular TP.

Thanks for this.

I'm doing my best to understand it...

I thought that the LCWRA element would be paid to us immediately as we are both in the ESA support group? Same for the carers element?

We were advised earlier in the thread to claim both, the LCWRA for me and the carers element for my wife as each can only be awarded to one of us at a time.

Why does having a month without my wife caring for me make a difference if she is successful in her PIP tribunal?

I'm fairly confident that she will be successful in that.

Because I moved 200 miles to be with my wife, I actually could say that she only started to care for me after 1st June. That's because I wasn't completely moved in until around the 3rd of June as I hadn't moved all of my belongings here until then. It was a slow process.

So, we will only get LCWRA and Transitional SDP if my wifes PIP tribunal is successful?

I apologize for the confusion but I think that anyone who doesn't know how these things work would find this really confusing and challenging.

Yamor

leamingtonspaceman said:

Yamor said:

leamingtonspaceman said:

Yamor said:

leamingtonspaceman said:

Yamor said:

I've come to this thread a bit late, but I don't think everything which has been said is correct.

Here are a few points:

1) It is irrelevant whether the migration notice was sent before you became a couple or after. In either case, the standard transitional protection cannot be applied because your wife did not receive a migration notice, and it is a condition for TP that you both have received migration notices.

2) You did not lose the EDP incorrectly after forming a couple, as your wife's NS-ESA would have reduced your ir-ESA entitlement to below your c-ESA entitlement. As such, the amount of your entitlement was correct.
It may well be that DWP wrongly moved you to NS-ESA at that point, but that doesn't matter from a legal decision-making perspective, as technically they are the same benefit, whatever DWP decide to call it. There is therefore nothing to appeal now. (I happen to think that, whatever they've told you now, they probably didn't actually move you to NS-ESA, but to c-ESA.)
If and when your wife is awarded PIP, then you would simply request a supersession of the decision to only award you c-ESA (or NS-ESA, whatever you want to call it) on the grounds that you actually continued to be entitled to some ir-ESA. If DWP try to argue that you were already on NS-ESA, then that can be dealt with as part of the appeal at that stage.

3) Although I said above that you are definitely not entitled to the standard TP, you will however become entitled to the Transitional SDP Element if your wife wins her appeal.

4) My advice would be to NOT put your wife as a carer for UC at the moment. That's because the amount of your UC entitlement if you were to do that is minimal (£34.95/month), whereas if your wife wins her appeal, then the extra Transitional SDP Element that you would get if she is not your carer, as compared to what you would get if she is your carer, would be about £340/month more, compared to £201/month for the Carer Element.
Rather, let your UC stay nil, and if and when she wins her appeal, request a revision on the initial UC decision.
If you feel the chances of her winning her appeal are low, then you may prefer not to follow this advice...
Alternatively, your wife could report that she started caring for you from some point in your second AP (well, notionally the second AP, because you weren't actually entitled to UC in the first AP, at least at this stage). Doing that would mean you would get the £34.95 from AP2 onwards, but you would still get the higher Transitional SDP Element if and when she wins her appeal, albeit reduced from the second AP by the amount of the Carer Element. By doing this, you are ensuring that you are only losing one month's worth of £34.95 if she does lose her appeal.

Crikey...

Just when I thought I understood what had happened, this completely confuses me again.

As I understand it, my wife would not have received a migration notice, because she was and is on New Style ESA?

Before I even begin to try and understand this, can I ask what an AP/AP2 is?

Also, are you saying that there are TWO transitional elements, a 'standard' one and another that protects the SDP?

Your wife didn't get a migration notice for two reasons: a) the migration notice was initially issued before you moved in together, and b) even after moving in together, you weren't then entitled to ir-ESA.
You got a migration notice despite b) because it was issued before you moved in together.
Had you moved in together before receiving the migration notice, and had your ir-ESA continued (for whatever reason), then you would have both received migration notices, despite only you being on ir-ESA.

"AP", as per HillStreetBlues, stands for Assessment Period, which is the basic time period of entitlement to Universal Credit. They are successive periods of a month, generally starting on the date you claimed UC.

There are two types of transitional protection, however, the Transitional SDP Element is only ever given to people not entitled to the regular Transitional Element.

Thank you for this.

Right... this all makes sense to me now, and is how I thought it should work.

So effectively, I don't need to do anything now?

I'm guessing that the Transitional SDP element is only something that I should bring up when and if my wife is successful in her PIP tribunal?

Out of interest, what IS protected under the regular TP? I can't seem to identify anything that I was receiving that would have needed protecting apart from the SDP?

If you think your wife's chances of winning are low, then you may want to report her caring now ASAP backdated to the start of your UC claim, and also get the LCWRA element added. This would ensure that you get the £34.95/month already, but would mean a lower overall entitlement if your wife wins her appeal, as I explained earlier.

Alternatively, if you wanted to go with my last suggestion, then you may wish to say now to UC that your wife started caring for you from a date which is more than a month after the date your UC claim started, i.e., not before 1st June.
This would enable you to get the £34.95/month for now from UC regardless of whether your wife wins her appeal or not, while still allowing you to get the higher entitlement if your wife wins her appeal.
The reason I'm not telling you to definitely do this is because it is skating slightly close to the line to say that she only started caring for you then, when there hasn't actually been any change at all in your circumstances at that point.

If you aren't going with either of the above routes, then yes, there is nothing to do right now. Although you could if you want work already on getting the LCWRA element added in preparation for when she wins her appeal. It wouldn't actually get you any money now, but it'll be one less thing to sort out after she wins her appeal.


As you say, the Transitional SDP Element will only be relevant after she wins her appeal, so there is no reason to bring it up now.


The regular TP is an overall protection comparing new benefit entitlement to old, taking any differences in the rules into account. In your case it happens to be that the only differences to take into account are the SDP and EDP entitlement (but reduced by the extra generosity of the LCWRA element as compared to the support group entitlement under the old system).
For that reason the Transitional SDP Element is not given to those entitled to the regular TP, as the loss of the SDP would already have been sorted by the regular TP.

Thanks for this.

I'm doing my best to understand it...

I thought that the LCWRA element would be paid to us immediately as we are both in the ESA support group? Same for the carers element?

We were advised earlier in the thread to claim both, the LCWRA for me and the carers element for my wife as each can only be awarded to one of us at a time.

Why does having a month without my wife caring for me make a difference if she is successful in her PIP tribunal?

I'm fairly confident that she will be successful in that.

Because I moved 200 miles to be with my wife, I actually could say that she only started to care for me after 1st June. That's because I wasn't completely moved in until around the 3rd of June as I hadn't moved all of my belongings here until then. It was a slow process.

So, we will only get LCWRA and Transitional SDP if my wifes PIP tribunal is successful?

I apologize for the confusion but I think that anyone who doesn't know how these things work would find this really confusing and challenging.

Going through your questions in order:

"I thought that the LCWRA element would be paid to us immediately as we are both in the ESA support group? Same for the carers element?"

The LCWRA element should be included in your UC award calculation immediately, but that by itself would not give you any extra money, as your UC award would still be reduced to nil due to your income from your ESA entitlements.
If you were to declare that your wife is a carer, then that extra element would also be added to your UC award calculation, and together with the LCWRA element would mean that you are left with £34.95/month of UC entitlement after deducting your income from your ESA entitlements.


"We were advised earlier in the thread to claim both, the LCWRA for me and the carers element for my wife as each can only be awarded to one of us at a time."

Nothing wrong with getting them to include the LCWRA element, but as regards the carer element, that was the subject of my earlier posts that it is probably better not to claim it.


"Why does having a month without my wife caring for me make a difference if she is successful in her PIP tribunal?"

This is because the amount of the Transitional SDP Element is much lower if someone starts caring for you in your first AP.


"So, we will only get LCWRA and Transitional SDP if my wifes PIP tribunal is successful?"

LCWRA you can get added to your UC claim immediately, but as per above, it doesn't mean you will actually get anything, due to your income from your ESA entitlements.

The Transitional SDP Element you will only be able to get if she wins her appeal.

Newcad

Thanks for your input @Yamor , the situation here is quite complicated and all help is welcome..

The timings seem to have been against this couple at every step.

Then the sudden mention of the earlier 'missing' Migration Notice from before they moved in together was somewhat of a curved ball.

I will DM you with some thoughts, I don't want to complicate this thread and confuse the OP further if I can avoid it.

@leamingtonspaceman If I could just ask you two questions here:

1- Does your wife have a date for her PIP tribunal yet?
2- Have you been to the Jobcentre and made a 'Claimant Commitment' for New Style ESA? NOT the one that you did for UC but a seperate one for New Style ESA?

leamingtonspaceman

Yamor said:

leamingtonspaceman said:

Yamor said:

leamingtonspaceman said:

Yamor said:

leamingtonspaceman said:

Yamor said:

I've come to this thread a bit late, but I don't think everything which has been said is correct.

Here are a few points:

1) It is irrelevant whether the migration notice was sent before you became a couple or after. In either case, the standard transitional protection cannot be applied because your wife did not receive a migration notice, and it is a condition for TP that you both have received migration notices.

2) You did not lose the EDP incorrectly after forming a couple, as your wife's NS-ESA would have reduced your ir-ESA entitlement to below your c-ESA entitlement. As such, the amount of your entitlement was correct.
It may well be that DWP wrongly moved you to NS-ESA at that point, but that doesn't matter from a legal decision-making perspective, as technically they are the same benefit, whatever DWP decide to call it. There is therefore nothing to appeal now. (I happen to think that, whatever they've told you now, they probably didn't actually move you to NS-ESA, but to c-ESA.)
If and when your wife is awarded PIP, then you would simply request a supersession of the decision to only award you c-ESA (or NS-ESA, whatever you want to call it) on the grounds that you actually continued to be entitled to some ir-ESA. If DWP try to argue that you were already on NS-ESA, then that can be dealt with as part of the appeal at that stage.

3) Although I said above that you are definitely not entitled to the standard TP, you will however become entitled to the Transitional SDP Element if your wife wins her appeal.

4) My advice would be to NOT put your wife as a carer for UC at the moment. That's because the amount of your UC entitlement if you were to do that is minimal (£34.95/month), whereas if your wife wins her appeal, then the extra Transitional SDP Element that you would get if she is not your carer, as compared to what you would get if she is your carer, would be about £340/month more, compared to £201/month for the Carer Element.
Rather, let your UC stay nil, and if and when she wins her appeal, request a revision on the initial UC decision.
If you feel the chances of her winning her appeal are low, then you may prefer not to follow this advice...
Alternatively, your wife could report that she started caring for you from some point in your second AP (well, notionally the second AP, because you weren't actually entitled to UC in the first AP, at least at this stage). Doing that would mean you would get the £34.95 from AP2 onwards, but you would still get the higher Transitional SDP Element if and when she wins her appeal, albeit reduced from the second AP by the amount of the Carer Element. By doing this, you are ensuring that you are only losing one month's worth of £34.95 if she does lose her appeal.

Crikey...

Just when I thought I understood what had happened, this completely confuses me again.

As I understand it, my wife would not have received a migration notice, because she was and is on New Style ESA?

Before I even begin to try and understand this, can I ask what an AP/AP2 is?

Also, are you saying that there are TWO transitional elements, a 'standard' one and another that protects the SDP?

Your wife didn't get a migration notice for two reasons: a) the migration notice was initially issued before you moved in together, and b) even after moving in together, you weren't then entitled to ir-ESA.
You got a migration notice despite b) because it was issued before you moved in together.
Had you moved in together before receiving the migration notice, and had your ir-ESA continued (for whatever reason), then you would have both received migration notices, despite only you being on ir-ESA.

"AP", as per HillStreetBlues, stands for Assessment Period, which is the basic time period of entitlement to Universal Credit. They are successive periods of a month, generally starting on the date you claimed UC.

There are two types of transitional protection, however, the Transitional SDP Element is only ever given to people not entitled to the regular Transitional Element.

Thank you for this.

Right... this all makes sense to me now, and is how I thought it should work.

So effectively, I don't need to do anything now?

I'm guessing that the Transitional SDP element is only something that I should bring up when and if my wife is successful in her PIP tribunal?

Out of interest, what IS protected under the regular TP? I can't seem to identify anything that I was receiving that would have needed protecting apart from the SDP?

If you think your wife's chances of winning are low, then you may want to report her caring now ASAP backdated to the start of your UC claim, and also get the LCWRA element added. This would ensure that you get the £34.95/month already, but would mean a lower overall entitlement if your wife wins her appeal, as I explained earlier.

Alternatively, if you wanted to go with my last suggestion, then you may wish to say now to UC that your wife started caring for you from a date which is more than a month after the date your UC claim started, i.e., not before 1st June.
This would enable you to get the £34.95/month for now from UC regardless of whether your wife wins her appeal or not, while still allowing you to get the higher entitlement if your wife wins her appeal.
The reason I'm not telling you to definitely do this is because it is skating slightly close to the line to say that she only started caring for you then, when there hasn't actually been any change at all in your circumstances at that point.

If you aren't going with either of the above routes, then yes, there is nothing to do right now. Although you could if you want work already on getting the LCWRA element added in preparation for when she wins her appeal. It wouldn't actually get you any money now, but it'll be one less thing to sort out after she wins her appeal.


As you say, the Transitional SDP Element will only be relevant after she wins her appeal, so there is no reason to bring it up now.


The regular TP is an overall protection comparing new benefit entitlement to old, taking any differences in the rules into account. In your case it happens to be that the only differences to take into account are the SDP and EDP entitlement (but reduced by the extra generosity of the LCWRA element as compared to the support group entitlement under the old system).
For that reason the Transitional SDP Element is not given to those entitled to the regular TP, as the loss of the SDP would already have been sorted by the regular TP.

Thanks for this.

I'm doing my best to understand it...

I thought that the LCWRA element would be paid to us immediately as we are both in the ESA support group? Same for the carers element?

We were advised earlier in the thread to claim both, the LCWRA for me and the carers element for my wife as each can only be awarded to one of us at a time.

Why does having a month without my wife caring for me make a difference if she is successful in her PIP tribunal?

I'm fairly confident that she will be successful in that.

Because I moved 200 miles to be with my wife, I actually could say that she only started to care for me after 1st June. That's because I wasn't completely moved in until around the 3rd of June as I hadn't moved all of my belongings here until then. It was a slow process.

So, we will only get LCWRA and Transitional SDP if my wifes PIP tribunal is successful?

I apologize for the confusion but I think that anyone who doesn't know how these things work would find this really confusing and challenging.

Going through your questions in order:

"I thought that the LCWRA element would be paid to us immediately as we are both in the ESA support group? Same for the carers element?"

The LCWRA element should be included in your UC award calculation immediately, but that by itself would not give you any extra money, as your UC award would still be reduced to nil due to your income from your ESA entitlements.
If you were to declare that your wife is a carer, then that extra element would also be added to your UC award calculation, and together with the LCWRA element would mean that you are left with £34.95/month of UC entitlement after deducting your income from your ESA entitlements.


"We were advised earlier in the thread to claim both, the LCWRA for me and the carers element for my wife as each can only be awarded to one of us at a time."

Nothing wrong with getting them to include the LCWRA element, but as regards the carer element, that was the subject of my earlier posts that it is probably better not to claim it.


"Why does having a month without my wife caring for me make a difference if she is successful in her PIP tribunal?"

This is because the amount of the Transitional SDP Element is much lower if someone starts caring for you in your first AP.


"So, we will only get LCWRA and Transitional SDP if my wifes PIP tribunal is successful?"

LCWRA you can get added to your UC claim immediately, but as per above, it doesn't mean you will actually get anything, due to your income from your ESA entitlements.

The Transitional SDP Element you will only be able to get if she wins her appeal.

Thanks for this... and I really am thankful.

This pretty much ties up the loose ends for me and it's all very clear now.

Just highlights how complex it can be to negotiate the benefits system. 

With these situations I always present as completely dumb to the mechanics and minutiae of how it works and defer to those more knowledgeable. However, once it's explained then I'm able to understand it.

I actually used to be a support worker and helped many vulnerable people negotiate the system as it was then, but that was a LONG time ago. The whole thing has changed since then and is completely unrecognisable to me now.