ESA/UC transitional protection and other points of confusion

Newcad

Thanks @Spoonie_Turtle Yes I believe that you are correct about it having to be the wife claiming the Carer Element at this time.

We agree on the conversion to NS ESA only being if you claim UC, I have seen other reports of ESA jumping the gun and doing it for a CoC though. (They will all eventually be moved over, but not just yet).
It usually doesn't make any difference, but in the circumstances of this case it could be vital.

I was just typing something up on that Changes of Circumstance cancelling TE point.
It doesn't apply here because the CoC was clearly before the Managed Migration notice was issued.
The op even has the ESA change letter to prove that.
So there was nothing to prevent any TE being applied, there just wasn't anything in payment to warrant a TE.

PS. You also make an interesting point about the couples rate SDP if both have PIP, but I'm not sure that it would apply here with the wife's ESA being New Style? Possibly it would.

@Leamingtonspaceman

IF your wife is awarded PIP at tribunal then you would normally be able to have your SDP reinstated back to the date that it was stopped.

However the SDP can only ever be with IR ESA, and on the date that your SDP was stopped the DWP also moved you to New Style CB ESA which can't have premiums.

So even if your wife is awarded PIP at tribunal there was nothing (after 21st April according to the DWP) to reinstate your SDP to anymore.

And without SPD on the day before you claimed UC then you can't get a TE for it.

To stand any chance of getting a TE added to your UC then you are first going to need to challenge the fact that they moved you to New Style ESA when they shouldn't have done.

Only if you can get that reversed will you then be able to have SDP possibly reinstated if your wife is awarded PIP. It could be reinstated in IR ESA for between 21st March and 1st May and so you could get a TE for it.

You are out of the one-month time for a Mandatory Reconsideration of that decision to move you to NS ESA, so would need a late MR or if they refuse then an appeal.

I think you are going to need the help of a local advisor who can see your paperwork to achieve that.
Does your wife currently have an advisor helping with her PIP appeal?

leamingtonspaceman

As it stands, when I lived on my own, I used to get:

Legacy ESA x 1 pw + SG x 1 pw + EDP x 1 pw + SDP x 1 pw

£90.50 x 1 pw + £47.70 x 1 pw + £20.85 x 1 pw + £81.50 x 1 pw

= £240.55 pw x 4

= 962.20 per month

Now, as a couple we get:

New Style ESA x 2 pw + SG x 2 pw

£90.05 x 2 pw + £48.50 x 2 pw

= £277.10 pw x 4

= £1108.40 per month (pre-April rise)

If we get LCWRA(UC)...

New Style ESA x 2 pw + LCWRA(UC) x 1 pm

£90.05 x 2 pw

= £180.10 pw x 4 weeks
= £720.40 pm + £423.27 pm

= £1143.67 per month (pre-April rise)

If, with transitional protection and my wife succeeding in her PIP tribunal, we would get SDP:

New Style ESA x 2 pw + SDP x 2 pw + LCWRA(UC)* x 1 pm

£90.05 x 2 pw + £81.50 x 2 pw

= £343.10 pw x 4 weeks 
= £1372.40 pm + £423.27 pm LCWRA(UC)*

= £1795.67 per month

*LCWRA(UC) replaces legacy ESA LCWRA (legacy ESA SG) and legacy ESA EDP

My wife would get the SDP backdated to October 2024, when she made her PIP claim and I would have it backdated to 21st March 2025 when ESA activated the change in my circumstances (even though I reported the change as 16th March 2025).

Newcad

No, you keep making the same mistake.

If we get LCWRA...

New Style ESA x 2 + SG x 2 + LCWRA

LCWRA is Support Group - they are the different names for the same thing.
The legislation (the law) that governs ESA has always called it LCWRA, right back to 2008 and well before UC existed.
It was only the DWP who decided to call it Support Group instead, to pretend that they would give you some extra support.
UC has just dropped the pretence of any extra support and calls it the same as the legislation calls it, just LCWRA.

You cannot lump ESA SG and UC LCWRA in the same payment like you have done there - they are different benefits

Back to TE.
As you noted yourself the UC LCWRA Element is more than ESA Support Group and the EDP put together,
UC with LCWRA pays more than ESA + SG + EDP did, so without the SDP there would be no TE due.

leamingtonspaceman

Newcad said:

No, you keep making the same mistake.

If we get LCWRA...

New Style ESA x 2 + SG x 2 + LCWRA

LCWRA is Support Group - they are the different names for the same thing.
The legislation (the law) that governs ESA has always called it LCWRA, right back to 2008 and well before UC existed.
It was only the DWP who decided to call it Support Group instead, to pretend that they would give you some extra support.
UC has just dropped the pretence of any extra support and calls it the same as the legislation calls it, just LCWRA.

You cannot lump ESA SG and UC LCWRA in the same payment like you have done there - they are different benefits

Back to TE.
As you noted yourself the UC LCWRA Element is more than ESA Support Group and the EDP put together,
UC with LCWRA pays more than ESA + SG + EDP did, so without the SDP there would be no TE due.

Thank you again.

I know it must be frustrating for you seeing me making the same mistake.  

I'm sorry, but my head has been spinning somewhat.

After stepping away for a few hours, I've amended the post now and hopefully it is correct this time?

I think the only thing I'm not sure of now is the final section of that post:

If, with transitional protection and my wife succeeding in her PIP tribunal, we would get SDP:

New Style ESA x 2 pw + SDP x 2 pw + LCWRA(UC)* x 1 pm

£90.05 x 2 pw + £81.50 x 2 pw

= £343.10 pw x 4 weeks 
= £1372.40 pm + £423.27 pm LCWRA(UC)*

= £1795.67 per month

*LCWRA(UC) replaces legacy ESA LCWRA (legacy ESA SG) and legacy ESA EDP

My wife would get the SDP backdated to October 2024, when she made her PIP claim and I would have it backdated to 21st March 2025 when ESA activated the change in my circumstances (even though I reported the change as 16th March 2025).

Newcad

I know that it can be good to have explored all the possibilities, but until your wife has had ner tribunal then this is all speculation with just to many if's and but's.
You are just confusing yourself further trying to work out things that are not going to happen.

You need to do things one step at a time, and not get ahead of yourself.

Have you put the notes on your journal that I advised, those should be your priority first.
Get those sorted out NOW and they should start paying you £35 a month UC, which will keep the UC open so that you can later tackle the question of TE.

As I said above:

Newcad said:

To stand any chance of getting a TE added to your UC then you are first going to need to challenge the fact that they moved you to New Style ESA when they shouldn't have done.

Only if you can get that reversed will you then be able to have SDP possibly reinstated if your wife is awarded PIP. It could be reinstated in IR ESA for between 21st March and 1st May and so you could get a TE for it.

You are out of the one-month time for a Mandatory Reconsideration of that decision to move you to NS ESA, so would need a late MR or if they refuse then an appeal.

I think you are going to need the help of a local advisor who can see your paperwork to achieve that.
Does your wife currently have an advisor helping with her PIP appeal?

Once you have done those notes on your journal so that UC is paying something, then that situation with the changing you to New Style ESA when they shouldn't have done needs to be sorted out next.

(Some might say to leave doing that until after your wifes tribunal, because if she doesn't get awarded PIP then it makes no difference anyway).

Again you are definitely going to need local help with that from an advisor who can see all your ESA letters.

Newcad

I think this would be a good time to have a recap of what happened that was wrong, and what you need to do now to maximize your benefits.
There are  4-steps needed to correct things and get a TE added to your UC - and they need to be done in order.
What happened that was wrong.
When you and your wife moved in together and reported that to ESA they should have removed your SDP. No argument about that.
However they should NOT have moved you to New Styles ESA. They had no legal basis for doing that.
By doing that they have effectively removed your EDP for the period between the Change and your claiming UC.
That's 46 days of EDP, worth about £138 that you have lost because of their error incorrect action in moving you to NS ESA when they shouldn't have done. (You could say that the DWP has 'stolen' that EDP from you by their error incorrect action).
(Moving you to NS ESA also makes somewhat of a mockery of your Managed Migration, because if moving you to NS ESA had been correct then there would have been no IR ESA to be migrated).
What you need to do now:
Firstly, a practical move:
You need to get UC paying you some money.
You do that by putting notes on your Journals and getting a LCWRA Element added for yourself and a Carer Element added for your wife.
Getting both those element added will pay you £35.07 a month of UC. as well as what you get for both ESA payments.
Secondly:
You need to challenge them moving you to New Style ESA when you moved in together.
The argument there is quite simple - They had no legal basis to move you from IR ESA at that time, and doing so had unlawfully deprived you of EDP for the period up to your claiming UC.
Although it's a simple argument I strongly suggest that you get an advisor help you ask for a 'late' Mandatory Reconsideration, and I fully expect that a late MR will be refused and you will need to appeal to tribunal.
Thirdly and fourthly (You can't start these just yet):
These parts depend on your wife being awarded her own PIP by the tribunal AND that you have already completed the ESA MR/appeal and you have been paid the 'missing' (stolen?) EDP.
(You also need to have got UC to be paying you as in the first step, so that the UC claim is still open).
IF/When both of those things are in place then two things can happen.
They should be done one at a time. And again I believe you will need the help of a local advisor to do them.
3rdly. You can ask that your (now closed) IR ESA award be revised to add couples SDP from the date that you started living together.
       That will increase what your SDP would have been and so increases any UC transitional Element due.
4thly. You can (at last) then ask for your UC to be revised and a transitional element added for your SDP.

You realy do need an advisor helping you with part 2 (and later with parts 3 & 4)
Whilst the DWPs error in moving you to New Style ESA when they shouldn't have done is plain and pretty easy to argue, the DWP will just try to fob you off.
They will say it was correct, they will say that you can't MR it or appeal it. You will need the help of an advisor who knows what to do then and who can/will write to the DWP on your behalf.

leamingtonspaceman

@Newcad...

I simply cannot thank you enough for the help, assistance and advice you've given. And I want to thank you as well for your patience and understanding.

I've tried not to think about it for the last couple of days and doing that has made it click into place a little more, as is usually the case with these things.

Yes, I put in journal entries for the things you mentioned on Friday so we'll see what happens with those.

I agree with all you've said in your last couple of posts. 

One of the characteristics of my autism is that I want to have everything 'straight' in my head as quickly as possible. This can lead me to get 'consumed' with things in the moment when stepping back would be the wisest decision.

The only point of confusion I have remaining is the SDP and EDP.

Which one of these should have been removed when I moved in with my wife?

1. Should I have had my EDP removed but should we BOTH have received SDP?

2. My wife doesn't appear to have received an EDP or SDP (or both?) component as part of her New Style ESA claim that began in October 2024.

I apologize in advance if you've already covered both of these points in your posts already.

Spoonie_Turtle

1. SDP, because you need to be living alone to qualify (or treated as living alone - i.e. only with any other adults who receive a qualifying disability benefit such as PIP or are registered blind).  So by moving in with your wife who wasn't disregarded, you no longer were eligible for the SDP.

2. New style ESA doesn't have those premiums at all, so that's correct for her award.

8dayweek

Newcad said:

I think this would be a good time to have a recap of what happened that was wrong, and what you need to do now to maximize your benefits.
There are  4-steps needed to correct things and get a TE added to your UC - and they need to be done in order.
What happened that was wrong.
When you and your wife moved in together and reported that to ESA they should have removed your SDP. No argument about that.
However they should NOT have moved you to New Styles ESA. They had no legal basis for doing that.
By doing that they have effectively removed your EDP for the period between the Change and your claiming UC.
That's 46 days of EDP, worth about £138 that you have lost because of their error in moving you to NS ESA when they shouldn't have done. (You could say that the DWP has 'stolen' that EDP from you by their error).
(Moving you to NS ESA also makes somewhat of a mockery of your Managed Migration, because if moving you to NS ESA had been correct then there would have been no IR ESA to be migrated).
What you need to do now:
Firstly, a practical move:
You need to get UC paying you some money.
You do that by putting notes on your Journals and getting a LCWRA Element added for yourself and a Carer Element added for your wife.
Getting both those element added will pay you £35.## a month of UC. as well as what you get for both ESA payments.
Secondly:
You need to challenge them moving you to New Style ESA when you moved in together.
The argument there is quite simple - They had no legal basis to move you from IR ESA at that time, and doing so had unlawfully deprived you of EDP for the period up to your claiming UC.
Although it's a simple argument I strongly suggest that you get an advisor help you ask for a 'late' Mandatory Reconsideration, and I fully expect that a late MR will be refused and you will need to appeal to tribunal.
Thirdly and fourthly (You can't start these just yet):
These parts depend on your wife being awarded her own PIP by the tribunal AND that you have already completed the ESA MR/appeal and you have been paid the 'missing' (stolen?) EDP.
(You also need to have got UC to be paying you as in the first step, so that the UC claim is still open).
IF/When both of those things are in place then two things can happen.
They should be done one at a time. And again I believe you will need the help of a local advisor to do them.
3rdly. You can ask that your (now closed) IR ESA award be revised to add couples SDP from the date that you started living together.
       That will increase what your SDP would have been and so increases any UC transitional Element due.
4thly. You can (at last) then ask for your UC to be revised and a transitional element added for your SDP.

You realy do need an advisor helping you with part 2 (and later with parts 3 & 4)
Whilst the DWPs error in moving you to New Style ESA when they shouldn't have done is plain and pretty easy to argue, the DWP will just try to fob you off.
They will say it was correct, they will say that you can't MR it or appeal it. You will need the help of an advisor who knows what to do then and who can/will write to the DWP on your behalf.

I would add here - report the Caring from start of UC claim and ask for Carers Element to be backdated to the start of the UC claim. 

(Otherwise most of what comes after it is pointless as any TP you may be eligible for will be eroded significantly in AP2). 

Newcad

I agree with what Spoonie_Turtle and 8dayweek have said there.

The SDP would be removed because you were now living with someone (who doesn't yet have PIP).
The EDP should have remained in payment because it is paid automatically if you are in the Support Group and entitled to Income related ESA.

Your wifes ESA is New Stryle ESA frm when she first claimed, it doen not include any premiums so no EDP or SDP.

8dayweek's point is a very good one, you need to say that you thought it was obvious from your claim that your wife was your carer and so a Carer Element should have been included from the start of the claim.