Power of Attorney Advice - Parent Refusal

Carmen1980

Hi all, 
Really need some advice. Since our mother passed away our father has been struggling to manage the household finances. He has never managed them before and despite our best efforts, things are slipping. We have tried to work with him to deal with some of the issues e.g. not paying bills on time, unsure of what certain direct debits are, but some things require us to speak on his behalf and he is refusing to allow us to do so, even though he wants us to deal with everything.

He wont disclose any of his own finances (which we know is his right to do) so we can make sure he has money to pay everything. We actually suspect he is developing dementia but he is perfectly capable around the house, shopping etc. We had POA for mum but dad is point blank refusing. Which we are absolutely fine with, but then he hands us a bundle of bills and mail and asks us to take care of it for him. We are at out wits end. Any advice very welcome. Note: we don't want POA, but we don't know how else we can keep on top of things for him. Are there alternative ways that would make him feel at ease?

tacpot12

There aren't any other ways, other than a third party mandate. But as with the POA he has to be prepared to agree to such a mandate and all the implications of this.

The only advice I can give is to refuse to help him UNLESS he agrees to work with you to manage his affairs. It's a form of tough love.

If he won't make a POA, and you shouldn't try to force him to do so, you can't do anything proactively to help him. All you can do is, when he asks you to help with a problem, require him to speak to the relevant party first and ask them to speak to you. This leaves him in control of every interaction you have on his behalf. He can listen in, and you can even put him on speakerphone so he can heard both sides of the conversation. If they ask you any questions you can't answer because you aren't aware of his full situation, put him back on to answer their questions. If this causes him problems, he has to accept that this is his responsiblity. 

You need to remind him that if there is no POA, you cannot help, and then anything may happen, but what will ultimately happen is that either Social Services or you will be successful in applying to the court of protect for a deputyship, so if he has a preference for his family helping him, he can save them till and money, and avoid problems with his finances by making a POA. 

Cobbler_tone

Easy solution to a difficult situation.
You refuse to help him unless you get a few caveats in place. You need to be added as an authorised person to deal with his suppliers. You can only work on the assumption that he has the money to pay for things. You would probably soon know if he didn't....unless he is spending on credit cards.
I would also ask to see a list of his current direct debits, just to check he isn't paying for services he no longer needs.
I think the POA conversation may be a step too far but I suspect that it won't take too long for him to ask for your help again if you back off.

I can imagine a similar conversation at some point with my parent(s) but it is one I would have. I know very little about their situation, other than they have a will and live comfortably. They don't see it this way but IMO it is incredibly selfish to leave financial affairs in a mess, or at least not very clearly signposted. Ultimately, the family are left to try and unpick matters at a very sad and stressful time. I know my parents would never have POA, from memory I mentioned it once years ago and now they are both in their late 80's. They won't even entertain a direct debit and have had mention that they have money in multiple accounts, including a significant amount in a 0% current account. You quickly learn where you can/can't influence them, regardless of how simple it would be to make things easier and better.  
My OH is still trying to unpick her mum's financial affairs, over 6 months since she passed away. She is no where near settling matters yet and still suffering with intense grief.
I wish our loved ones would make things easier in that respect but I guess when someone leaves us they don't have to worry about it!

lr1277

Here are a few experiences I have had.
My dad had dementia. We (my mother and I) needed him to speak to his bank. However he couldn’t remember the details to his security questions so my mum and I were prompting him. The CS person heard us and promptly froze the account. The only way to unfreeze it was with dad visiting a branch with ID. This was not easy as he had mobility issues. 
My mum has her faculties but lacks confidence speaking to CS staff. So if we can do things online she sits with me and tells me what to enter to pass security, then once in, I do what is needed. This is mainly for paying bills by bank transfer
However if a phone call is required, she sits with me, speaks to CS agent to pass security then gives CS agent permission to speak to me about the matter. The only downside of this approach is sometimes the phone lines are only open during weekday office hours. This means I have to visit mum during these times to make the calls. Not always convenient.
If you had POA you could contact whoever at your own convenience, say from home.

otb666

We are in same boat and relative is in late 90s.  Its very hard especially when they now have memory problems.  We do everything online with them sitting with us.  We have done this for last 3 years and have only had to ring sky once when broadband being updated. There is just no way they will agree to POA.  I commented in March on a similar thread called Lack of LPA.  I go from half admiring their determination to being annoyed at their selfishness.  At the end of the day it will be their money you spend on deputy thingy if needed and therefore its down to them.  We spend a lot of time now on telephone and visiting them. They wont spend any money on carers and it takes a hell of a toll on us both. But cannot see any other way at the moment. There is no way they would let anyone into their home. I did check the council list for assessment request but they can feed and wash them self etc.  Just try and put your foot down now as it can go on for years otherwise. 

Carmen1980

tacpot12 said:

There aren't any other ways, other than a third party mandate. But as with the POA he has to be prepared to agree to such a mandate and all the implications of this.

The only advice I can give is to refuse to help him UNLESS he agrees to work with you to manage his affairs. It's a form of tough love.

If he won't make a POA, and you shouldn't try to force him to do so, you can't do anything proactively to help him. All you can do is, when he asks you to help with a problem, require him to speak to the relevant party first and ask them to speak to you. This leaves him in control of every interaction you have on his behalf. He can listen in, and you can even put him on speakerphone so he can heard both sides of the conversation. If they ask you any questions you can't answer because you aren't aware of his full situation, put him back on to answer their questions. If this causes him problems, he has to accept that this is his responsiblity. 

You need to remind him that if there is no POA, you cannot help, and then anything may happen, but what will ultimately happen is that either Social Services or you will be successful in applying to the court of protect for a deputyship, so if he has a preference for his family helping him, he can save them till and money, and avoid problems with his finances by making a POA. 

Thank you. We’ve tried the “we’ll come on the call with you but on a couple of occasions when he’s been asked details, he says he doesn’t know. For example security question answers. We’ve had a couple of terminated phone calls. The latest is council tax. While on the phone he asked me a question, they heard him and thought I was guiding him. Nightmare. 

I think you’re right. Tough love might be the only option here.

Carmen1980

lr1277 said:

Here are a few experiences I have had.
My dad had dementia. We (my mother and I) needed him to speak to his bank. However he couldn’t remember the details to his security questions so my mum and I were prompting him. The CS person heard us and promptly froze the account. The only way to unfreeze it was with dad visiting a branch with ID. This was not easy as he had mobility issues. 
My mum has her faculties but lacks confidence speaking to CS staff. So if we can do things online she sits with me and tells me what to enter to pass security, then once in, I do what is needed. This is mainly for paying bills by bank transfer
However if a phone call is required, she sits with me, speaks to CS agent to pass security then gives CS agent permission to speak to me about the matter. The only downside of this approach is sometimes the phone lines are only open during weekday office hours. This means I have to visit mum during these times to make the calls. Not always convenient.
If you had POA you could contact whoever at your own convenience, say from home.

Yes! The very same thing has happened to us. He doesn’t know the security prompts, and then asked me questions, which they heard, and terminate call. So frustrating. He won’t allow us to go to the bank with him as he doesn’t want to share his finances with us. 

lr1277

We had one advantage even though dad had somewhat advanced dementia/parkinsons; he could still sign his name. So we would explain the situation to him and agree with him what the letter would say. We/I would write the letter, he would sign it then it got sent. With one particular bank, money was sent to an account at a different bank and the original account closed. This was because dad could not remember his security answers to telephone them nor did he remember where he had written the online security details. They were written down somewhere but he did not remember where they were nor could we find them or we found them and there were multiple sets of security details for the same institution. Most institutions respond to letters even if it takes longer.

Edited to add by sign his name I mean his signature was virtually the same as his signature before his diagnosis.

lr1277

Not sharing with you nor trusting you is the problem. To be a donor for a POA he would have to trust you.
Perhaps have the tough love conversation about trust first before suggesting ways forward like POA. 

I imagine the conversation will be tough for both you and your dad. I would also suggest giving your dad time to take the idea on board. Maybe days or even weeks. Whether you down tools in the meantime is up to you.

As an aside my parents had wills written in the noughties. These involved trusts. These wills were bad news as the inheritance laws had changed in the meantime. Also I didn’t want to do the work associated with the trusts. It took a few months of discussions bringing it up every 2-3 weeks before my dad agreed to change the will to a simple will. I was upfront the noughties will would mean more IHT would be paid and I didn’t want to do the work.  Like I said he agreed. Fortunately this was in the earlier stages of his dementia and we got a solicitor to write the new wills. The solicitor determined dad still had capacity to rewrite the will so this was done.

Edited to change agreed to determined.

RAS

Carmen1980 said:

lr1277 said:

Here are a few experiences I have had.
My dad had dementia. We (my mother and I) needed him to speak to his bank. However he couldn’t remember the details to his security questions so my mum and I were prompting him. The CS person heard us and promptly froze the account. The only way to unfreeze it was with dad visiting a branch with ID. This was not easy as he had mobility issues. 
My mum has her faculties but lacks confidence speaking to CS staff. So if we can do things online she sits with me and tells me what to enter to pass security, then once in, I do what is needed. This is mainly for paying bills by bank transfer
However if a phone call is required, she sits with me, speaks to CS agent to pass security then gives CS agent permission to speak to me about the matter. The only downside of this approach is sometimes the phone lines are only open during weekday office hours. This means I have to visit mum during these times to make the calls. Not always convenient.
If you had POA you could contact whoever at your own convenience, say from home.

Yes! The very same thing has happened to us. He doesn’t know the security prompts, and then asked me questions, which they heard, and terminate call. So frustrating. He won’t allow us to go to the bank with him as he doesn’t want to share his finances with us. 

The bank won't share his finances with you without his express permission. Mum took me to the bank (her request, not my prompting, although I drove her), and asked me to queue for the customer services.

The bank collected her from where she was sitting and she told them what she wanted in a closed meeting. Then the bank manager came out and asked me to join them, repeating what they agreed with her and confirming her consent. They actually used the EPA document as a basic power of attorney, allowing me to help.as long as she consented and had capacity. 

Even when she was in hospital being assessed she had to sign documents setting up various savings deals. I couldn't transfer money to other accounts within the banking group but I could pay bills, change domestic suppliers etc, and sign cheques. I suspect they'd have been onto me pretty sharp if there were any suspect cheques.

elsien

EPA is a power of attorney, but not one that can be put in place now as it’s been superseded by LPA for those that didn’t already have one. Did you mean general power-of-attorney instead because that does not need registration with the OPG.