Grievance process

Tabieth

a4007035 said:

My understanding is that the comments were made to a male colleague in his team outside of work in a social setting where they were talking about the looks of the people in the team. I don't know exactly what was said. 

Given it’s resulted in a disciplinary process and your friend thought he’d be dismissed, I think it safe to assume they were pretty bad comments. 

MattMattMattUK

Savvy_Sue said:

a4007035 said:

My understanding is that the comments were made to a male colleague in his team outside of work in a social setting where they were talking about the looks of the people in the team. I don't know exactly what was said. 

But someone - presumably other than the male colleague who has now left - made a complaint, so I'm guessing it was a bit more than "I like Sue's new haircut". "Yeah, Susie could do with one too, it's quite an old-fashioned style and doesn't suit her."

The comments were made in a non-work setting, not publicly to the media, nor from what we know published and so bringing the employer into disrepute. So regardless of what was said I would say that seems to be some overreach. Though there may be a desire to get rid of an otherwise problematic employee.

Savvy_Sue said:

Honestly, in general we do not rush to HR the moment anyone says anything at all about our appearance, it's got to be pretty bad ... 

It is not clear who the "we" is? I have seen over several decades that it does not need to be bad at all. I have seen the most petty, childish, vindictive or vexatious complaints made against other employees. Complaints made over comments that 99.9% of people would not deem in any way inappropriate through to mildly inappropriate that means someone gets dragged over the coals for nothing.

There are too many people looking to be offended, there seems to be a culture of grievance and HR departments often seem to go along with that. Better to sack someone for saying something than be seen to not side with whoever raised the grievance. 

I have a customer who I deal with, they have lots of employees, one of them is a lovely guy who happens to be gay. Last year someone submitted a complaint to their HR department because at a garden party he said hello to me by saying "Hello gorgeous, you look fabulous today" and touched my shoulder. I was not in any way offended (I took it as it was intended, a compliment), it was not inappropriate in the minds of anyone sane, only the one person who decided to submit a complaint to their HR department about it. He was still suspended from work whilst they "conducted an investigation" (I told them I had zero issue with his behaviour), I suspect if I had been female and he had been a straight man then the outcome would have been much worse. Over the years I have learned that the part of HR that deals with "inappropriate behaviour" is very rarely if ever there for the benefit of employees, if often seems to not even be there for the benefit of the employer either, but exists in some kind of bubble that makes no sense to anyone sane. It either goes out of it's way to persecute people for comments that almost no one is an issue with, or it protects people with a long and sustained history of abusive or highly inappropriate behaviours.

Tabieth

MattMattMattUK said:

Savvy_Sue said:

a4007035 said:

My understanding is that the comments were made to a male colleague in his team outside of work in a social setting where they were talking about the looks of the people in the team. I don't know exactly what was said. 

But someone - presumably other than the male colleague who has now left - made a complaint, so I'm guessing it was a bit more than "I like Sue's new haircut". "Yeah, Susie could do with one too, it's quite an old-fashioned style and doesn't suit her."

The comments were made in a non-work setting, not publicly to the media, nor from what we know published and so bringing the employer into disrepute. So regardless of what was said I would say that seems to be some overreach. Though there may be a desire to get rid of an otherwise problematic employee.

Savvy_Sue said:

Honestly, in general we do not rush to HR the moment anyone says anything at all about our appearance, it's got to be pretty bad ... 

It is not clear who the "we" is? I have seen over several decades that it does not need to be bad at all. I have seen the most petty, childish, vindictive or vexatious complaints made against other employees. Complaints made over comments that 99.9% of people would not deem in any way inappropriate through to mildly inappropriate that means someone gets dragged over the coals for nothing.

There are too many people looking to be offended, there seems to be a culture of grievance and HR departments often seem to go along with that. Better to sack someone for saying something than be seen to not side with whoever raised the grievance. 

I have a customer who I deal with, they have lots of employees, one of them is a lovely guy who happens to be gay. Last year someone submitted a complaint to their HR department because at a garden party he said hello to me by saying "Hello gorgeous, you look fabulous today" and touched my shoulder. I was not in any way offended (I took it as it was intended, a compliment), it was not inappropriate in the minds of anyone sane, only the one person who decided to submit a complaint to their HR department about it. He was still suspended from work whilst they "conducted an investigation" (I told them I had zero issue with his behaviour), I suspect if I had been female and he had been a straight man then the outcome would have been much worse. Over the years I have learned that the part of HR that deals with "inappropriate behaviour" is very rarely if ever there for the benefit of employees, if often seems to not even be there for the benefit of the employer either, but exists in some kind of bubble that makes no sense to anyone sane. It either goes out of it's way to persecute people for comments that almost no one is an issue with, or it protects people with a long and sustained history of abusive or highly inappropriate behaviours.

The fact that the comments were made in a non-work setting is irrelevant. Case law is clear on that. 

None of us know what was said. All we know is 1) comments were made, 2) there was a disciplinary process and 3) the person being investigated assumed he was going to be dismissed for gross misconduct. That makes it sound pretty severe to me. Of course it could be HR overreach, but the more likely explanation is that he did something severe enough to face dismissal. 

Finally I’m sick of the “too many people look to be offended” stance. Women have faced decades (longer) of discrimination and harassment in the workplace. Not that long ago it was acceptable and routine to grope and sexually harass women in the workplace. It still happens but luckily not on the same scale and not as open. Women still don’t have equal pay. I’m always sorry for people investigated who did nothing wrong. But I’m glad the pendulum has shifted and poor behaviour is no longer considered acceptable. Sadly there are always a few who trot out the tired “can’t say anything anymore” justification for unacceptable behaviour. 

sheramber

I can remember a time when a woman was insulted if a workman did not give her a wolf whistle when she  passed by. 

Changed days.

Tabieth

sheramber said:

I can remember a time when a woman was insulted if a workman did not give her a wolf whistle when she  passed by. 

Changed days.

Well I can’t remember that. 

Personally speaking, I’ve never been insulted by not being wolf-whistled. I have however been insulted (and embarrassed and frightened) by unwelcome, unprovoked sexualised comments when minding my own business. I’m glad such behaviour is less acceptable today and sad some seem to defend it. 

Skiddaw1

Tabieth said:

sheramber said:

I can remember a time when a woman was insulted if a workman did not give her a wolf whistle when she  passed by. 

Changed days.

Well I can’t remember that. 

Personally speaking, I’ve never been insulted by not being wolf-whistled. I have however been insulted (and embarrassed and frightened) by unwelcome, unprovoked sexualised comments when minding my own business. I’m glad such behaviour is less acceptable today and sad some seem to defend it. 

I absolutely agree @Tabieth

As it happens, I am from the era when it was acceptable to wolf-whistle at women and personally, I never enjoyed it much. I certainly wasn't insulted at not being whistled at (and nor were most of the women I knew at the time).