Octopus Energy Bills - Watch those pennies folks

la531983

HillStreetBlues said:

BigDod12PR said:

I must be having a very bad day or my maths and engineering degree has completely been a complete waste of time :-) . £36.27935 rounded to 2dp is not £36.31. £36.27935 rounded to 2dp is £36.28. A 3 pence overcharge!

Prices are actually X.XXX  rather than X.XX  so for you it will be 6.595

No it wont, because it would then show as 6.60 on the bill

It will be somewhere between 6.590000001 and 6.594999999. I cant be bothered working it out.

BigDod12PR

Mark_d said:

BigDod12PR said:

Mark_d said:

You have consumed 51.0 cubic metres of gas

Multiply this by volume correction and calorific value (noting that calorific value is not constant over time)

Divide by 3.6 to convert to kWh

The answer will not be exactly 550.5 !

Calculations are performed to a higher accuracy result are only displayed to one or two decimal places for ease of reading.

There will be an element of rounding in your bill total - some month's you might be overcharged by 0.5p and some  months you'll be undercharged. But overall your total energy consumption is correct and the rates you're charged are correct.

Hi Mark_d. Thanks for your message. So the sum goes..... kwh = (51.0 (units of consumed in m3) x 1.02264 (Vol Correction) x 38 (calorific Value)) all divided by 3.6 (convert from Joules). This gives me 550.5212 kWh which if we multiply by 6.59 pence per kWh equals a total cost of £36.27935. I was charged £36.31. Can you perhaps explain what I am missing here?

What you're missing is that the calorific value is not constant.  The average calorific value over your 11 day period is not 38 exactly. Therefore your figure of 550.5212kWh is not correct.

The extract above is taken from my bill. I get what you are saying that perhaps this calorific value changes but according to my bill the maths do not add up. It is plain and simple for anyone with a calulator to add up. I can't see anything within Octopus T's & C's that mention the varying calorific value. If this is the case then Octopus need to put the actual real value in the bills. Personally I think customers are having pennies taken from them without them really noticing. I will write to Octopus and the energy Ombusman asking them to clearly explain. I have spent the past two months trying to get Octopus to fix my gas smart meter so my emails to them are getting tired. Looks like switching providers has by some miracle fixed the meter and I can now see my daily gas consumption. I do appreciate your feedback so thanks.

la531983

BigDod12PR said:

Mark_d said:

BigDod12PR said:

Mark_d said:

You have consumed 51.0 cubic metres of gas

Multiply this by volume correction and calorific value (noting that calorific value is not constant over time)

Divide by 3.6 to convert to kWh

The answer will not be exactly 550.5 !

Calculations are performed to a higher accuracy result are only displayed to one or two decimal places for ease of reading.

There will be an element of rounding in your bill total - some month's you might be overcharged by 0.5p and some  months you'll be undercharged. But overall your total energy consumption is correct and the rates you're charged are correct.

Hi Mark_d. Thanks for your message. So the sum goes..... kwh = (51.0 (units of consumed in m3) x 1.02264 (Vol Correction) x 38 (calorific Value)) all divided by 3.6 (convert from Joules). This gives me 550.5212 kWh which if we multiply by 6.59 pence per kWh equals a total cost of £36.27935. I was charged £36.31. Can you perhaps explain what I am missing here?

What you're missing is that the calorific value is not constant.  The average calorific value over your 11 day period is not 38 exactly. Therefore your figure of 550.5212kWh is not correct.

 I will write to Octopus and the energy Ombusman asking them to clearly explain. 

No, the procedure is to exhaust Octopus complaints procedure first.

OFGEM, however, are fully aware of the 2dp thing.

open_letter_-_application_of_decimal_places_in_the_tariff_information_final.pdf

HillStreetBlues

la531983 said:

HillStreetBlues said:

BigDod12PR said:

I must be having a very bad day or my maths and engineering degree has completely been a complete waste of time :-) . £36.27935 rounded to 2dp is not £36.31. £36.27935 rounded to 2dp is £36.28. A 3 pence overcharge!

Prices are actually X.XXX  rather than X.XX  so for you it will be 6.595

No it wont, because it would then show as 6.60 on the bill

It will be somewhere between 6.590000001 and 6.594999999. I cant be bothered working it out.

I agree.
It looks like they always keep it below X.XX5  as it makes the price look cheaper than it really is,  if they used X.XX5 or above it would look dearer than it is.

WiserMiser

TL;DR: Sorry to seem blunt, but you're not being overcharged, and complaining would just waste everyone's time.

My Octopus gas tariff is quoted as 5.50p/kWh inc VAT.  That amounts to 5.23809523809p ex VAT.  In the calculation the ex VAT figure is shown rounded to 5.24 to make the bill more legible, but the underlying calculation uses the accurate figure with more decimal places.  It gives a pre-VAT result that's 3.8p lower that what the calculation would suggest.

debitcardmayhem

BigDod12PR said:

Mark_d said:

BigDod12PR said:

Mark_d said:

You have consumed 51.0 cubic metres of gas

Multiply this by volume correction and calorific value (noting that calorific value is not constant over time)

Divide by 3.6 to convert to kWh

The answer will not be exactly 550.5 !

Calculations are performed to a higher accuracy result are only displayed to one or two decimal places for ease of reading.

There will be an element of rounding in your bill total - some month's you might be overcharged by 0.5p and some  months you'll be undercharged. But overall your total energy consumption is correct and the rates you're charged are correct.

Hi Mark_d. Thanks for your message. So the sum goes..... kwh = (51.0 (units of consumed in m3) x 1.02264 (Vol Correction) x 38 (calorific Value)) all divided by 3.6 (convert from Joules). This gives me 550.5212 kWh which if we multiply by 6.59 pence per kWh equals a total cost of £36.27935. I was charged £36.31. Can you perhaps explain what I am missing here?

What you're missing is that the calorific value is not constant.  The average calorific value over your 11 day period is not 38 exactly. Therefore your figure of 550.5212kWh is not correct.

The extract above is taken from my bill. I get what you are saying that perhaps this calorific value changes but according to my bill the maths do not add up. It is plain and simple for anyone with a calulator to add up. I can't see anything within Octopus T's & C's that mention the varying calorific value. If this is the case then Octopus need to put the actual real value in the bills. Personally I think customers are having pennies taken from them without them really noticing. I will write to Octopus and the energy Ombusman asking them to clearly explain. I have spent the past two months trying to get Octopus to fix my gas smart meter so my emails to them are getting tired. Looks like switching providers has by some miracle fixed the meter and I can now see my daily gas consumption. I do appreciate your feedback so thanks.

Nothing to do with the calorific value, what was your contract rate per kWh for gas i.e. including VAT?
Feed that into your calc instead of the 6.59 and then divide by 1.05 , bet you get 36.31 or whatever it said. Saves you going to Octopus , read my previous post.

The_Green_Hornet

BigDod12PR said:

Hi Everyone. Just an observation here and curios to put this out in the public domain for questioning. I was looking at how I am charged by my energy prider Octopus (who by the way I have just left due to ongoing issues with my smart meter). I think it might be the case that customers are being overcharged but only by the odd pence here and there. I have attached a recent bill for my gas for an 11 day period (see below).

There are two issues here that I would like to raise.

1. If my maths are correct 550.5 kWh of gas at 6.59 p/kWh amounts to  £36.27795 (550.5 x 0.0659). It doesn not equal £36.31 which I have been charged. So Octopus have overcharged me by 3.2 pence on gas alone just on this one bill.

2. Another observation made is that Octopus always round up the pence. So if your bill came to £36.255, they would always round up to £36.26 and charge us this extra half penny. In fact I think they round up the penny everytime it seems. They even round up the standing charge fees.

On the face of it this might not seem like much. What's a half pence or an overcharge in pennies going to do? Not much for you and I but if you were to consider the 12.9 million customers Octopus have in the UK (according to Google) all those millions of half pennies and all those small miscalculations where there is only a few pennies out in our bills, they all add up to a consderable amount of money. So who gets this money? Does Octopus bank it? They are in essence taking money that is not theirs

I think there is something more sinister happening here which perhaps has went undetected up until now. I'd love for the moneysavingexpert team or the energy ombusman to take a closer look into this.

If other energy providers are following this billing scheme then it does begs the question, are we being ripped off even more for our energy than we care to realise?

I encourage anyone to check yuor bills and see if teh same is happening to you. If so drop me a comment.

The issue is not that you have been overcharged as Octopus Energy's underlying calculations are correct. It is the way that they display those calculations on your bills that is incorrect.

BigDod12PR

Hi Everyone. Thanks for all your comments and feedback on this one.

I'd just like to give an update on where I am on this. I have been in touch with Octopus regarding this and they replied to me last night. I have shown below their email response. I still think they are wrong. Octopus have suggested to me that the additional few pence they have overcharged me could be due to one of three reasons but they couldn't say for sure why I have been overcharged. 

"Thank you for your question regarding your bill calculation. Let's break it down together.
If you calculate 550.5 kWh at a rate of 6.59 pence per kWh, the total would be:
550.5 kWh * 6.59 pence = 3,628.695 pence, which is £36.29 when converted to pounds.
It seems that you were charged £36.31, which is slightly higher than the calculated amount. This difference could be due to a few factors:

1. Additional Charges: Sometimes, there are additional fees or adjustments that can be added to your bill, such as standing charges or any applicable taxes.  - (Comment by BigDod12PR - The standing charge fee is on another line entry in the bill and accounted for so it has nothing to do with this).

2. Rounding: The final amount on your bill may also be rounded up to the nearest penny, which can cause a small discrepancy. (Comment by BigDod12PR - If rounded, the total for the gas should have been £36.29 and not £36.31 which they charged me)

3. Billing Period: If the bill covers a period where your usage varied, the average rate might differ slightly from the rate used for the calculation. (Comment by BigDod12PR - The rate they charge is listed in my bill. This is what they should be charging me.)

If you have any further questions or need more clarification, please feel free to ask!"

Look folks. A few years back, some banks & credit lenders were involved in a scam where people were getting pennies taken from their accounts. Nobody noticed as the value was so tiny and seemd so insignificant that nobody really questioned it. This actually happened. Millions were taken unlawfully.

According to data on Google, Octopus have around 7.3 million customers in the UK. If you consider 7.3 million customers having a couple of pence taken from them each month of the year all these pennies add up to a significant sum of money. I have only considered my gas calculations. I havent even looked into my electricity billing but I can only assume it will be the same with some pennies being over-charged.

This morning I contacted Police Scotland to report this as I truly belive that there is an element of fraud happening here. Police Scotland have taken a note of this. I have been advised to first discuss with Octopus. If not resolved with Octopus I need to contact the Energy Ombusman to take the matter further which I will as I am not satisfied by the response Octpus have provided. Why can't they say with certainty where my overcharge has occured?

Sorry to bang on here about this but I think we are all having the wool pulled over our eyes here. I think we are being fed a load of nonsense and a lot of people are just accepting this. We already get ripped off for our energy, I don't see why we should be paying a penny more for what we use. Especialy at others financial gain.

I'm not going to post anything further on here about it. I'm just going to take the matter up with the Energy Ombusman. I wont't settle unitl I have been shown why and how they have overcharged me. Only when I see this will I be abel to accept it.

MattMattMattUK

BigDod12PR said:

Hi Everyone. Thanks for all your comments and feedback on this one.

I'd just like to give an update on where I am on this. I have been in touch with Octopus regarding this and they replied to me last night. I have shown below their email response. I still think they are wrong. Octopus have suggested to me that the additional few pence they have overcharged me could be due to one of three reasons but they couldn't say for sure why I have been overcharged. 

"Thank you for your question regarding your bill calculation. Let's break it down together.
If you calculate 550.5 kWh at a rate of 6.59 pence per kWh, the total would be:
550.5 kWh * 6.59 pence = 3,628.695 pence, which is £36.29 when converted to pounds.
It seems that you were charged £36.31, which is slightly higher than the calculated amount. This difference could be due to a few factors:

1. Additional Charges: Sometimes, there are additional fees or adjustments that can be added to your bill, such as standing charges or any applicable taxes.  - (Comment by BigDod12PR - The standing charge fee is on another line entry in the bill and accounted for so it has nothing to do with this).

2. Rounding: The final amount on your bill may also be rounded up to the nearest penny, which can cause a small discrepancy. (Comment by BigDod12PR - If rounded, the total for the gas should have been £36.29 and not £36.31 which they charged me)

3. Billing Period: If the bill covers a period where your usage varied, the average rate might differ slightly from the rate used for the calculation. (Comment by BigDod12PR - The rate they charge is listed in my bill. This is what they should be charging me.)

If you have any further questions or need more clarification, please feel free to ask!"

Look folks. A few years back, some banks & credit lenders were involved in a scam where people were getting pennies taken from their accounts. Nobody noticed as the value was so tiny and seemd so insignificant that nobody really questioned it. This actually happened. Millions were taken unlawfully.

According to data on Google, Octopus have around 7.3 million customers in the UK. If you consider 7.3 million customers having a couple of pence taken from them each month of the year all these pennies add up to a significant sum of money. I have only considered my gas calculations. I havent even looked into my electricity billing but I can only assume it will be the same with some pennies being over-charged.

This morning I contacted Police Scotland to report this as I truly belive that there is an element of fraud happening here. Police Scotland have taken a note of this. I have been advised to first discuss with Octopus. If not resolved with Octopus I need to contact the Energy Ombusman to take the matter further which I will as I am not satisfied by the response Octpus have provided. Why can't they say with certainty where my overcharge has occured?

Sorry to bang on here about this but I think we are all having the wool pulled over our eyes here. I think we are being fed a load of nonsense and a lot of people are just accepting this. We already get ripped off for our energy, I don't see why we should be paying a penny more for what we use. Especialy at others financial gain.

I'm not going to post anything further on here about it. I'm just going to take the matter up with the Energy Ombusman. I wont't settle unitl I have been shown why and how they have overcharged me. Only when I see this will I be abel to accept it.

They cannot show you "why and how they have overcharged" you, because they have not overcharged you. It is not about "being fed a load of nonsense" or "get ripped off", you are choosing to be unwilling to understand, that will get you nowhere in life. 

BigDod12PR

MattMattMattUK said:

BigDod12PR said:

Hi Everyone. Thanks for all your comments and feedback on this one.

I'd just like to give an update on where I am on this. I have been in touch with Octopus regarding this and they replied to me last night. I have shown below their email response. I still think they are wrong. Octopus have suggested to me that the additional few pence they have overcharged me could be due to one of three reasons but they couldn't say for sure why I have been overcharged. 

"Thank you for your question regarding your bill calculation. Let's break it down together.
If you calculate 550.5 kWh at a rate of 6.59 pence per kWh, the total would be:
550.5 kWh * 6.59 pence = 3,628.695 pence, which is £36.29 when converted to pounds.
It seems that you were charged £36.31, which is slightly higher than the calculated amount. This difference could be due to a few factors:

1. Additional Charges: Sometimes, there are additional fees or adjustments that can be added to your bill, such as standing charges or any applicable taxes.  - (Comment by BigDod12PR - The standing charge fee is on another line entry in the bill and accounted for so it has nothing to do with this).

2. Rounding: The final amount on your bill may also be rounded up to the nearest penny, which can cause a small discrepancy. (Comment by BigDod12PR - If rounded, the total for the gas should have been £36.29 and not £36.31 which they charged me)

3. Billing Period: If the bill covers a period where your usage varied, the average rate might differ slightly from the rate used for the calculation. (Comment by BigDod12PR - The rate they charge is listed in my bill. This is what they should be charging me.)

If you have any further questions or need more clarification, please feel free to ask!"

Look folks. A few years back, some banks & credit lenders were involved in a scam where people were getting pennies taken from their accounts. Nobody noticed as the value was so tiny and seemd so insignificant that nobody really questioned it. This actually happened. Millions were taken unlawfully.

According to data on Google, Octopus have around 7.3 million customers in the UK. If you consider 7.3 million customers having a couple of pence taken from them each month of the year all these pennies add up to a significant sum of money. I have only considered my gas calculations. I havent even looked into my electricity billing but I can only assume it will be the same with some pennies being over-charged.

This morning I contacted Police Scotland to report this as I truly belive that there is an element of fraud happening here. Police Scotland have taken a note of this. I have been advised to first discuss with Octopus. If not resolved with Octopus I need to contact the Energy Ombusman to take the matter further which I will as I am not satisfied by the response Octpus have provided. Why can't they say with certainty where my overcharge has occured?

Sorry to bang on here about this but I think we are all having the wool pulled over our eyes here. I think we are being fed a load of nonsense and a lot of people are just accepting this. We already get ripped off for our energy, I don't see why we should be paying a penny more for what we use. Especialy at others financial gain.

I'm not going to post anything further on here about it. I'm just going to take the matter up with the Energy Ombusman. I wont't settle unitl I have been shown why and how they have overcharged me. Only when I see this will I be abel to accept it.

They cannot show you "why and how they have overcharged" you, because they have not overcharged you. It is not about "being fed a load of nonsense" or "get ripped off", you are choosing to be unwilling to understand, that will get you nowhere in life. 

Trust me. I want to understand. Believe me I but my calculator does not lie. Octopus calculate the same sum as i do yet they charge me over 2 pence onmy bill. I don't care that they have taken 2 pence extra from me but I do care about them taking 2 pence extra each month from 7.3 million customers in the UK.

If you or anyone else can look at my bill and show to me how they calculated £36.91 (before the 5% VAT is applied) then i will gladly accept it and draw a line under the matter.