Neighbour taking down our fence

gerbiljo2

We have a boundary onto a neighbouring property we are having a dispute with it’s about 60m long and the back and side of our neighbours progressing building plot- we have a small holding and his plot was historically part of our property’s garden long before we purchased it.

The boundary fencing, when we moved in was varying in height and old a lot of it was low level, but functional. It was a vacant over grown plot as he didn’t have planning and rarely visited. Our moving documents stated previous owners were unsure who owned the fence but they maintained them to keep livestock in- but I expect parts of it were put up originally when the property was divided.

Our neighbour had been trying to get planning permission for years and asked us to write a letter to facilitate this- which we did. 

Once he gained planning permission we came home one day and our neighbour had taken down the back fence, cleared our trees and some other bits and burnt them leaving the scene as we arrived home that day.

My husband phoned him straight after and communication continued the following day-  he said he wanted to look into our plot for the view but we feel he was trying to land grab also as he did it with no communication  beforehand and tried to remove all evidence of the original fence. He said he would not put up a fence until he had finished building his new home (still ongoing) knowing we needed a functional fence in place- basically forcing us to pay for one at our own expense.

We contacted our local PCSO who is always in contact this time of year for advice, She advised we report the fence as stolen.  He received a police caution for theft. 

We contacted our solicitor (no longer at same job) at the time and he advised we were entitled to put up a fence on the boundary of any materials and were indeed obliged to because we have livestock. We did at our cost to keep him out but also remark the boundary he had cleared as you could still see some snapped off posts where he had left quickly having been disturbed.

Because we felt uneasy about him being able to see or get in we also put up fencing along the rest of the boundary which we erected on our side of the property- leaving the original boundary fencing in place (he was arguing some of it was his) and added hedging. 

We deliberately left the original fence in place so he could not say we had stolen it etc.- he immediately removed this original fence in effect removing the original boundary line. This fence has been in place for 3 years. This means the whole of the boundary fence was paid for by ourselves except for a small amount at the front of the property which is 6ft old cross cross mesh- this fence apparently was part of a historic greyhound pen on our property with bracing into our garden which we attached our new fence to, he never removed this as he knew it was ours. I suspect this was within the boundary on our side.

We do have some photos of the original fence still in position. We have not really spoke to our neighbours since- bad terms. 

Our neighbour has now built a property on his plot although it is not complete. There have been lots of breaches in planning- namely the property has been built elevated out of the ground and all the dirt spread from the built around the plot to raise his ground level above ours. The council have not really done anything about this except to say he needs to put up a fence to maintain our privacy on the side only.

He has now decided he wants to replace the whole boundary fence with a fence of his choice and wants to remove ours to do this. We want our fence to stay in place because we don’t feel our efforts and cost should be removed again on his terms, plus we feel a double fence is sensible so he cannot say we have damaged his fence etc going forward. As far as we are concerned we thought he would need to build this on ‘his side’ of our fence especially as ours was built on our side of the boundary but the council suggested we should take our fence down in stages to help him build his fence- which we advised we were not happy to do.

Last week he started taking down our fence with no communication beforehand and so far has just removed the cross cross mesh and some of the bracing that goes into our garden- damaging the integrity of the fence we put up in places. We contacted the police. And had to supply various photographic evidence to support its our fence and on our side etc.

The police have come back to us saying that he has deeds saying the boundary is his therefore he can remove the fence we put up and replace it with his own although have of course said it is a civil matter. They basically said as long as he removes the fence and leaves it on our property that’s acceptable even if it it on our side as it is in his way. They said it was ok he removed the cross cross fence because we didn’t put it up so they said it has no monetary value and no crime has been committed.

We do not feel this is right as all this fencing was put up at substantial cost and stress to ourselves  (with no real option not to) and on our side of the boundary albeit close proximity all along the side. We now feel worried he will come onto our property and remove our fence when we are not in and there is little we can do. Undoubtedly his intention will be to move the boundary over a bit more and clear all the plants etc we have planted- at significant cost (and it’s quite overgrown) to do this as he is obsessed with removing all plants and shrubbery.

I believe we probably need to get an injunction on our fence and possibly an external company to establish the boundary officially? However we don’t want to waste lots of money if we do not have a case.

I would really appreciate some advice the whole experience has been v stressful. I have been up all night looking stuff up and have contacted a local solicitors and one via our house insurance. I know it’s really long but I’m desperate right now. My husband was so stressed last night and very very negative and I am worried about him and the situation. We are already at the end of our tether in many ways and not sure what to do and now feeling v anxious and vulnerable.

ty

WIAWSNB

Yikes. What a vile human being.
I'm confused by some points, mainly that the first PCSO seemed of decent calibre, and you therefore got the correct outcome of 'theft' that time, but the further removal of your fence isn't eliciting a similar response? Why is this?*
Given you knew your neighb was likely to continue to take advantage, why didn't you put up CCTV?
Who actually put up this chain link fence he's now taking down? 
Just how far over the 'line' is he installing the new fence? 
Do you have a 'view' beyond your garden that he might wish to benefit from - could that part of his reasoning have been true? 

* If the circumstances - the crime - is genuinely the same - a repeat - then he should be in deep poo. You can oblige the police to act, and not just accept their opinion; escalate the matter. Official complaint. Take it to the commissioner if needed.
WHY aren't they acting? Are they getting their facts wrong? How could they accept the initial theft, not not a repeat?

gerbiljo2

The police this time have said that although the fence bears- it has 45 degree supports- about 1m into our land on our land we didn’t put it there as it was there before we moved there. Therefore as it says on his plan the boundary is his he can therefore take it down. It is worth no monetary value so it is not theft despite it being rolled up on his drive. But agreed no different to before.

the police have also said he can take down both our fences totalling about 5k- one being our side of the boundary because he needs to to put up a new fence as long as he doesn’t damage it and gives it back to us- which really doesn’t feel right to us.

We do have CCTV unfortunately not in that location or garden is large and he only takes up a tiny corner of it. But it needs to go on the to do list!

The chain link fence was apparently part of an old dog run that was historically on the property owned by people who previously owned our house.

i guess he might just install the fence on the boundary once our fence is down, I can’t be sure he will take more but I wouldn’t put it past him. But i am worried about him getting rid of the hedging as he removed loads before and it has grown back yet. We also feel anxious when we are working that the police have given him the all clear to remove it and we can’t see what he does.

He feels he bought the view- backing onto land and wants to be able to look into our garden, we have pet sheep and ponies etc and he was not happy when we put in a full height fence to stop him looking in after he removed the first fence.

i agree with you about the police but i feel bad to cause them trouble.I really just need to know if the advice is correct can he take down a fence we bought when he wasn’t willing to put one up before it seems unfair ☹️but if that’s the case we might have to accept it but to me I think that advice seems wrong

Titus_Wadd

From personal experience I'd try to get your legal protection* to send a cease and desist letter, whilst continuing to take plenty of photos and measurements.  

We put up Blink cameras because they don't need special wiring and because the police wouldn't act without visual evidence.  

Don't take any notice of police trying to give you advice on civil law, they don't understand it.

After 5+ years of clips and incidents reported to 101 and 999, our case is now with CPS for criminal harassment and criminal damage but our civil case has paused.

* Our legal protection facilitated an ex parte injunction.  Then the responsible solicitor dropped the ball and failed to correctly submit the paper work for the injunction hearing and the substantive case.  The judge removed the injunction and refused to hear the case (which does at least mean we can apply again).  

Because the injunction was ex parte (served without prior notice to the respondents) there are strict rules regarding the subsequent hearings with the burden of costs falling on the applicants (us) if not correctly followed.  The judge awarded full costs to the respondents (them) which amounted to £45k. 

Had we been using a local solicitor we would have had to pay this.  The legal protection is like "no win no fee" so the costs were wholly underwritten (paid) by the legal protection.  That didn't feel like a win from our perspective, but certainly relieved we didn't have to pay up.  So, even though our experience with a local solicitor seemed easier than dealing with legal protection, I'd go with the legal protection option again, certainly for an injunction.  I'd caveat that by saying I'd now be checking with them very regularly to chase for updates and make sure they are on the ball.  Their system is clumsy because all communication passes through their insurance staff and speaking directly with their solicitors is difficult.  If I started again I'd be pressing for regular direct conversations with the lawyer.

If you apply for an injunction it is costly and stressful, should you need to enforce any breaches.  If there is any hint of anti-social behaviour or threats an injunction with power of arrest then means you can report to the police to act.  Without power of arrest the only way to seek enforcement is by application through the civil courts and more expense.

Definitely start keeping a written log of all interaction with the neighbour because, if you need to report a pattern of behaviour to the police or the council they will, in the first instance, tell you to keep a log.  Having one ready speeds things up (relatively we're still without protection or deterrent nearly 6 years later).  Most local councils and some police forces have templates on their websites.  Definitely add a column about how the neighbour's actions have made you feel - again this supports any future civil or criminal cases.  

Don't be fobbed of by being told "it's a civil matter" or "it's just a neighbour dispute" - keep logging any interaction or neighbour actions towards yourselves or your property.

Don't delay communicating with the neighbour to inform them that you don't accept his actions (no threats though - don't even threaten civil action initially).  BUT FILM IT ON YOUR MOBILE! (discretely) or if you prefer we use the easy voice recorder mobile phone app to record conversations even more discretely.  Never expect your neighbour to behave according to your own moral compass, he clearly has already crossed a line, but always remain calm and objective because civil action always expects the parties to be paragons of virtue.  If you are calm and reasonable but he loses his temper it may help your case, and won't harm it.

Finally, don't neglect your health and well-being - my OH and I were both diagnosed with high blood pressure during our neighbour troubles and this in turn lead to me being diagnosed with a congenital heart defect.  Our GP wrote a statement for the court that gave his opinion that stress had played a part, along with mental health symptoms and a bout of shingles.  

I know this may read like I'm telling you how to "play the system" but all statements are true and believe me, your neighbour probably already knows how to play the planning system to his advantage, and since all councils are strapped for cash the odds are heavily stacked against full enforcement action for breaches.  We have had 2 Local Government Ombudsman cases upheld and one police complaint upheld and yet we are still living in a state of precarity having had several physical assaults and 100+ acts of ASB, Criminal Damage and a similar number of planning condition breaches reported with supporting evidence.  It can be tough getting through these authorities "Gate-keeping" hurdles.

 

I hope your case goes better than ours and please return with any progress reports because it really helps folk who are going through something similar.  

Wishing you al the v best x

FlorayG

Do NOT take legal advice from the police - they actually have no more cognisance of the law than do you, they just follow the rules set out for them. You need to speak with a decent solicitor who deal with boundary disputes.
If the fence is on your side of the boundary the neighbour absolutely has no right to remove it - One time I asked my (very nice) neighbour if I could remove his very tatty fence that was between us and replace it with a nicer one, he said no, I erected my own fence on my side of his. I had a nice fence to look at, he had his tatty one.

WIAWSNB

gerbiljo2 said:

The police this time have said that although the fence bears- it has 45 degree supports- about 1m into our land on our land we didn’t put it there as it was there before we moved there. Therefore as it says on his plan the boundary is his he can therefore take it down. It is worth no monetary value so it is not theft despite it being rolled up on his drive. But agreed no different to before. That's fine, and surely you want rid of these fence bearers too?

The police have also said he can take down both our fences totalling about 5k- one being our side of the boundary because he needs to to put up a new fence as long as he doesn’t damage it and gives it back to us- which really doesn’t feel right to us. I believe that is incorrect (but I'm not a legal bod) so I suggest you ask the police to put that in writing. If that fence is on your side of the acknowledged boundary line, it's yours, and no-one should touch it wothout your express permission. I also cannot visualise a scenario where anyone needs one fence to be taken down in order to put up their own on their land. Could you explain?

We do have CCTV unfortunately not in that location or garden is large and he only takes up a tiny corner of it. But it needs to go on the to do list! Yup.

The chain link fence was apparently part of an old dog run that was historically on the property owned by people who previously owned our house. Where does it run in relation to the boundary?

i guess he might just install the fence on the boundary once our fence is down, I can’t be sure he will take more but I wouldn’t put it past him. But i am worried about him getting rid of the hedging as he removed loads before and it has grown back yet. We also feel anxious when we are working that the police have given him the all clear to remove it and we can’t see what he does. On what side of the boundary does this hedge run? I suggest that any fewnce you put up is clearly on your side of the boundary line. That will keep it 100% yours.

He feels he bought the view- backing onto land and wants to be able to look into our garden, we have pet sheep and ponies etc and he was not happy when we put in a full height fence to stop him looking in after he removed the first fence. Time to buy some nice, evergreen trees. Buy them now, move them to larger pots, keep them well watered so they keep healthy and growing, and one this fence malrkey is over, stick them in the ground. Nicely spaced - 1.5-2m, so they don't constitue a 'hedge'.

i agree with you about the police but i feel bad to cause them trouble.I really just need to know if the advice is correct can he take down a fence we bought when he wasn’t willing to put one up before it seems unfair ☹️but if that’s the case we might have to accept it but to me I think that advice seems wrong

Choose your battles carefully. If he is going to replace this wire fence with something better, then fine. If you aren't certain who owns each section of fence, then tread carefully. Take lots of pics and measurements to show where the existing posts are. If necessary, stick guide posts exactly 1 or 2m inside your land, and take videos and photos to demonstrate their position - eg against a tape measure. Ie, if he tries to remove evidence of the existing posts, you must be able to demonstrate clearly and accurately where they were.

Evidence evidence evidence. And you need to have a recorded means of when you tell this fellow to not remove x, y or z as they are yours.

gerbiljo2

Titus- wadd that just sounds truly awful tbh I don’t think we could survive that ☹️

Floray g I feel like the police have basically advised him he can take down the fence so I feel like if he does we can’t call them now, what would we do?

WIAWSNB- yeah the chain link fence is alongside the boundary/ potentially part of it? 

The bushes are our side of the fence but he has cleared our shrubbery before hence they would be exposed to him again if the fence came down. The issue I guess is that the fence he wants to fit is lower than our so he can look in, he didn’t like that we put up a high fence

thank you all

WIAWSNB

gerbiljo2 said:

Titus- wadd that just sounds truly awful tbh I don’t think we could survive that ☹️
Floray g I feel like the police have basically advised him he can take down the fence so I feel like if he does we can’t call them now, what would we do?

WIAWSNB- yeah the chain link fence is alongside the boundary/ potentially part of it? 

The bushes are our side of the fence but he has cleared our shrubbery before hence they would be exposed to him again if the fence came down. The issue I guess is that the fence he wants to fit is lower than our so he can look in, he didn’t like that we put up a high fence.

It really isn't clear, from what you are telling us, whether you know, for certain, where the exact, true, invisible boundary line runs? 
And, does it really matter to the inch - or 4? 
If he is replacing the chain link fence with a better type - timber fence, or whatever - then there are three scenarios;
1) the chain fence is on his side of the boundary line, in which case he can do so if he wants. If the exact boundary line is unknown, then how will you be able to stop him if you can't evidence where it is? In this situation, if the new fence is going to be better, then I'd probably confirm with him, "that's 'ok' - but don't move the line."
2) the chain fence is 'party', shared, in effect straddles the boundary line. That would make it a shared responsibility, with any change to be agreed on. But, again, I would look at what is is proposing to do, and if it's like in (a), then I'd explain I 'ok, I agree', with the usual provisos - do not move the physical boundary.
For these two scenarios, I would - personally - 'play along', giving your 'permission', but adding the necessary caveats ('same location', etc). State this clearly - make your points, and then show you are reasonable and aren't going to protest for no good reason. By all means express your disappointment at their manner of handling this, but hey. And then add the 'no-goes'. 
At ALL times you must record and evidence all of this. If you need, at any time, to take action, then you need to be able to make it unimpeachable. "No, he knew not to do xyz, as I stated that clearly here..." "No, I did not agree to that, as I made clear here...", etc etc, and you present your recording as evidence.
Hopefully, no actual 'action' will be required, so either of these two scenarios will pan out, and you'll both end up with a new fence, at his cost. Try to avoid action being required that may either cost you, or embroil you in an ongoing dispute - both are hellish.
But I'm not saying to let him get away with unreasonable behaviour. You remain in control; "What are you doing? What is your intention? Ok, that's fine - I'm ok with you doing this, but you mustn't do that...". Recorded. 
Once it's all sorted, then plant your beautiful trees :-)
3) The guy is clearly crossing the boundary on to your land/ is clearly damaging plants and hedges that are yours. In this case, it's evidence as before, clear instructions from you insisting he stops, and call the police. Engage your LegProt.
But without unambiguous evidence, how can you expect anyone to act to help you? Sort that right away. 

grumpy_codger

gerbiljo2 said:

The police this time have said that although the fence bears- it has 45 degree supports- about 1m into our land on our land we didn’t put it there as it was there before we moved there. Therefore as it says on his plan the boundary is his he can therefore take it down [1]. It is worth no monetary value so it is not theft [2] despite it being rolled up on his drive. But agreed no different to before.

the police have also said he can take down both our fences totalling about 5k- one being our side of the boundary because he needs to to put up a new fence [3] as long as he doesn’t damage it and gives it back to us- which really doesn’t feel right to us.

They either are incompetent idiots (on three counts), or, more likely, are deliberately fobbing you off.     

youth_leader

So very sorry to read this.  Friends recently moved somewhere with land and all the 'neighbours' sent a letter specifying which animals they would 'tolerate'.  They had to rehome many of their animals.

saajan_12

Sounds like a nightmare! 
I'd reiterate that police would not know property law, evidenced by their seemingly wacky suggestion that owning "the" boundary means that the neighbour owns any fence even if on your property not on the boundary. Something being assembled does have value above the materials, that's like saying the value of a house is the sum of the bricks. The only way they'd be allowed to dismantle and return the materials to you is if the fence was on their land, but they can't go around dismantling stuff on your land.. 

Depending on how rural and how many physical markers there are, you might be able to get a land survey to determine and mark out the actual boundary. Then you'd either get an injunction to get the neighbour to stop and/or sue them for the costs to restore the fence which you've proved was on your land, nothing to do with their ownership of the boundary.