Wireless Smart Meter

TimeLord1

Thanks, everyone! I appreciate your responses so far! 👍 

Now, thoughts on the current latest smart meters being fitted: are they all 4G, or are they capable of transmitting 5G? The reason why I ask is with Sunspell switching off 2G and 3G in 2033. could this potentially happen to 4G further down the line?

MattMattMattUK

TimeLord1 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

TimeLord1 said:

Hi, I'm hoping someone will be in the know about energy smart meters and just explain whose internet WiFi they're actually using.

When you say "wireless smart meter", do you mean the actual smart meter or the IHD? As TB says the smart meters themselves use mobile/data networks (varies in different parts of the country), the IHD uses a direct local connection to the meter.

@MattMattMattUK

I was referring to the IHD positioning to the hub after reading it was unlikely to cause significant interference; there's a theoretical possibility of minimal disruption if they are very close.

TimeLord1 said,

Can they pull down your home, broadband or interfere with speeds? I've spoken to a couple of electricians and a gas boiler fitter; none of them seemed to know the answer.

A smart meter certainly cannot pull down your home, nor interfere with your broadband or wifi network.

Is this depending on it's location?

TimeLord1 said:

Obviously they're using the household electricity, minimal cost to home owners. 

The smart meter itself uses energy from the pre-meter side, so no cost to the home owner, the IHD uses a nominal amount of power, most are between 2-8 watts (the power supply will be rated higher) with the display active, less when the display goes to sleep. 

Who picks up pre-meter in the long run every household standing charges ?

Thanks for your input!!

There is a theoretical possibility of a smart meter causing interference if you stuck your router to the front of it, but in reality you are likely to get more electrical interference from the general wiring within your property and your microwave oven puts out an order of magnitude more interference.

For the pre-meter cost we all do yes, it sits within the standing charge and effectively falls under transmission losses, it is a tiny level of consumption. Less than 2 watts peak and usually less than 0.3w.

MattMattMattUK

TimeLord1 said:

Thanks, everyone! I appreciate your responses so far! 👍 

Now, thoughts on the current latest smart meters being fitted: are they all 4G, or are they capable of transmitting 5G? The reason why I ask is with Sunspell switching off 2G and 3G in 2033. could this potentially happen to 4G further down the line?

4G will eventually be turned off, so will 5G. Comms hubs on some early units will need to be replaced etc. but that will all be handled by the energy suppliers on behalf of the DNO, no need for any of it to matter to consumers. 

TimeLord1

MattMattMattUK said:

TimeLord1 said,

Thanks, everyone! I appreciate your responses so far! 👍 

Now, thoughts on the current latest smart meters being fitted: are they all 4G, or are they capable of transmitting 5G? The reason why I ask is with Sunspell switching off 2G and 3G in 2033. could this potentially happen to 4G further down the line?

4G will eventually be turned off, so will 5G. Comms hubs on some early units will need to be replaced etc. but that will all be handled by the energy suppliers on behalf of the DNO, no need for any of it to matter to consumers. 

Except for being around for them to install it safely.

It will be interesting to see how the future technology makes the current options redundant in time especially with solar systems.  I think a lot of people will be gone also. Cheers fella. 

J_B

MattMattMattUK said:

The smart meter itself uses energy from the pre-meter side, so no cost to the home owner, the IHD uses a nominal amount of power, most are between 2-8 watts (the power supply will be rated higher) with the display active, less when the display goes to sleep.

Just curious - what about a smart gas meter?

MattMattMattUK

J_B said:

MattMattMattUK said:

The smart meter itself uses energy from the pre-meter side, so no cost to the home owner, the IHD uses a nominal amount of power, most are between 2-8 watts (the power supply will be rated higher) with the display active, less when the display goes to sleep.

Just curious - what about a smart gas meter?

They use a battery for power and only periodically communicate with the electricity meter which has the comms hub on it. The battery is supposed to be good for ten or more years and is replaceable, though the current view is that the meters will just get replaced every ten years. 

Newcad

A bit late here, but I am one of the special 'Forum Volunteers' of the OVO forum so yes I'm familiar with smart meters and the usual questions.

The smart meter itself, and the Communications Hub that sits directly on top of it (usually, they can be seperted with a flying lead when it's needed in some cases) are powered from the network before it is metered, it doesn't go on your bills.

Here's a typical electricity smart meter (white) and attached communications hub (grey),
Note the words 'ZigBee', and the 'WAN', and 'HAN' labled LEDs on the coms hub, those LEDs should flash green about every 5 seconds when things are communicating as they should..

Gas smart meters have a long life battery that should last for the lifetime of the meter, Gas Smart meters only communicate with the communications hub once every 30 minutes to save battery use. So if you have a gas smart meter then your In Home Display will only show updates to your gas usage every half hour.

The way a smart meter communicates to your In Home Display/Device is by a radio signal called 'Zigbee', it's is a short range system a bit like Bluetooth. The Zigbee signal is refered to as your 'Home Area Network' or HAN and links your IHD and your smart gas meter if you have one to the communications hub.

Some IHDs are capable of connecting to your home Wifi/broadband, but they do not send meter readings that way (or not yet at least, it is technically possible and may happen in future but probably not).
There are security issues with allowing the sending of such communications over broadband - mainly network hacking concerns, if the system is not connecting to the internet then it can't be hacked over the internet - and so it is not currently allowed.

The signal that does send the meter readings is known as the 'Wide Area Network' or WAN, it is seperate to the HAN Zigbee signal.

What the HAN uses to connect with the DCC (the snart meter data collectors) depends on where you live.
South of a line roughly from Liverpool to the Humber the WAN signal is a 2G/3G/4G phone signal, there is a project now ongoing to replace all 2G/3G Communications Hubs in the South with new 4G hubs.
Following technical improvements that no longer means changing the whole meter, engineers can now just swap the hub that is sat on top of the meter itself without having to touch any of the wiring.
North of that line from Liverpool to the Humber the WAN signal is a Long Range Radio system provided by Arqiva, telephone signals are not normally used North of that line*.

Smart meter communications are a developing system, developing quite rapidly at the moment for various reasons, for example:

*There is one new exception to that Nort/South division where new dual band Communications Hubs capable of both Arqiva LRR and 4G  are now being fitted.
There is an ongoing replacement excercise for old RTS meters, mainly in Scotland but there are some in England too. Those old non-smart meters were connected for Remote Time Switching by radios signals, and have to be replaced quickly now because that switching signal is being discontinued later this year (or sooner if it breaks down, there are no longer any of the 4-foot tall replacement radio valves needed for the transmitters).
In Places like Orkney and Shetland there is no coverage by the Arqiva LRR signal and so the new dual band LLR/4G Communication Hubs have been authorised for first use up there, they should soon also be available to fit in other remote areas of Scotland provided a 4G signal is available to connect to.
It is forseen that the dual band coms hubs will become standard, so that whether you are in the North or the South the Coms Hub will automatically pick the best type of signal for your properties location.

PS. You can find much more information about Smart Meters on the OVO forum, we try to keep it up to date but some may not be up with the very latest news yet (such as those Dual Band coms hubs up in the Scottish Isles).
https://forum.ovoenergy.com/smart-meters-136/smart-meters-and-in-home-displays-topic-hub-8601

Just read, or join the forum if you want to ask questions, all are welcome and you don't need to be an OVO customer to join.

TimeLord1

Cheers @Newcad I'm not with them but they seem to be installing regularly around here. 

Newcad

Just a bit more about that situation with the Radio Teleswitch switch off, it hasn't made many headlines yet apart from up in Scotland, but as I said before there are many properties in England still with RTS meters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch#Transmitter_and_service_obsolescence

In October 2011, the BBC stated that the Droitwich transmitter, including Radio 4's longwave service and Radio Teleswitch, will cease to operate when one of the last two valves breaks, and no effort would be made to manufacture more nor to install a replacement longwave transmitter.

The BBC stated that their plan is simply to cease broadcasting on longwave forever once the Droitwich transmitter fails. It has been reported that the BBC estimated that fewer than ten spare compatible valves existed in the world, and that each valve had a working life of between one and ten years.

13 years later and they are now on their last valve, so they have lasted quite well, but there is nothing to replace that last one when it goes.

Which means a bit of a worry for those still with RTS elctricity meters controlling their electric heating times.
Will they get a suitable replacement before that last valve fails? (or gets switched off for good in September).
Whet will happen with their electricity supply if they don't? (Most likely stuck on one tariff either Sandard rate or Cheap rate, and possibly stuck without any electric heating).

PS. If you can't get an engineer to come look at your electricity meter it's because most of them are up in Scotland working flat out to replace those RTS meters before the signal goes off.
If that last valve does fail then there will be even more of a panic on.

Qyburn

Newcad said:

North of that line from Liverpool to the Humber the WAN signal is a Long Range Radio system provided by Arqiva, telephone signals are not normally used North of that line*.

Smart meter communications are a developing system, developing quite rapidly at the moment for various reasons, for example:

*There is one new exception to that Nort/South division where new dual band Communications Hubs capable of both Arqiva LRR and 4G  are now being fitted.

Can you give some model numbers for these dual WAN hubs?  "Dual band" was mentioned by Octopus in relation to our recent smart meter problems, I'd been assuming they referred to dual band in the HAN, but maybe not.