Night Storage Heaters Charging during Daytime

inspectorperez

Cut a long story short following installation of new smart meter by EDF in readiness for RTS switch off.

The meter is located in an area where there is little prospect of connectivity and readings have to be harvested manually for submission to supplier. Water heating is controlled by separate 24 hour clock and this is working okay.

It is apparent however that the night storage heaters are drawing energy during daytime hours, but this usage is clocked up correctly on the night time meter register.

There should not be a problem in terms of overcharging for billing purposes, but this does suggest to me that the configuration of the meter is not correct.

Can anyone with experience of these meters offer an explanation for this please before I renew dialogue with EDF?

QrizB

It sounds as though EDF have misconfigured the meter, and/or the Meyer's internal clock is wrong.

Provided you're correct that the daytime NSH charging is being recorded on the off-peak register, you don't need to contact EDF or do anything about it. The situation you're on is similar to a conventional E7 meter where the time switch has drifted.

If it isn't causing problems, in your shoes I'd probably leave it as it is.

Ildhund

inspectorperez said:

It is apparent however that the night storage heaters are drawing energy during daytime hours, but this usage is clocked up correctly on the night time meter register.

Back in December, you reported "New smart meter up and running. Power being switched on and off at right times for night storage heaters and immersion." Have you changed your mind about the 'right times', or have the times changed since then?

We did see that @Rosie1001 had a similar problem with her shiny new EDF meter at the start of this quarter, when the times that had been right suddenly became wrong, so it's possible that something similar happened in your case. It's not likely, of course, since you claim that your meter isn't communicating with EDF, so they couldn't have reconfigured your meter ...

What tariff are you supposed to be on (its name and timings, please)? And whereabouts are you in the country (the first part of the postcode is usually enough)? 

Scot_39

inspectorperez said:

Cut a long story short following installation of new smart meter by EDF in readiness for RTS switch off.

The meter is located in an area where there is little prospect of connectivity and readings have to be harvested manually for submission to supplier. Water heating is controlled by separate 24 hour clock and this is working okay.

It is apparent however that the night storage heaters are drawing energy during daytime hours, but this usage is clocked up correctly on the night time meter register.

There should not be a problem in terms of overcharging for billing purposes, but this does suggest to me that the configuration of the meter is not correct.

Can anyone with experience of these meters offer an explanation for this please before I renew dialogue with EDF?

Smart meters have preset timing tables.

It sounds like your heating is controlled  by the meter itself switching a time restricted feed - using ALCS functionality.  So their supply should only be live at off peak rates.
Smart Meters have configurable tariff timing tables and seperate alcs timing tables  - ideally matched - but suppliers have been known to get it wrong (in the @Rosie1001 referenced in another reply - one stayed from both e10 to a mix of e7 and e10 - so heaters wee activating and electricity charged at wrong rates at different times of day)

If the meter is recording usage at wrong times on right or wrong registers and charged at wrong rates  under your supply contract you are IMO obliged to report it to your supplier.  It is  not operating as intended or as per your suppliers cost calculations for the tariff.

Just because they are correct at one point in the day - or in your favour - they may be out at another.  As in the above EDF users case - they were being overcharged for 5 hrs heating restricted supply and undercharged for 2 every for live supply 24 hrs due to mismatch iirc)

But what are your tariff off peak times meant to be ?
Are you sure you haven't been e.g. moved onto e10 tariff  - with 5 hrs  overnight, 3 hrs afternoon and 2hrs evening offpeak for heating.

A closer match to some old RTS timings (my replacement e10 and my old rts timings matched exactly)

If not correct and the times are out - in old days at least by iirc 2 hours or more from nominals they have an  obligation under their license conditions to fix it.  But obviously if it's costing you more - you should push for a fix.

As above if you are aware of a fault - any fault - including in my opinion at least meter switch timings - you are obliged to report it.  See EDF T&Cs for domestic supplies - 3.h  "You must tell us immediately ... or fault to the metering..."

inspectorperez

Ildhund said:

inspectorperez said:

It is apparent however that the night storage heaters are drawing energy during daytime hours, but this usage is clocked up correctly on the night time meter register.

Back in December, you reported "New smart meter up and running. Power being switched on and off at right times for night storage heaters and immersion." Have you changed your mind about the 'right times', or have the times changed since then?

We did see that @Rosie1001 had a similar problem with her shiny new EDF meter at the start of this quarter, when the times that had been right suddenly became wrong, so it's possible that something similar happened in your case. It's not likely, of course, since you claim that your meter isn't communicating with EDF, so they couldn't have reconfigured your meter ...

What tariff are you supposed to be on (its name and timings, please)? And whereabouts are you in the country (the first part of the postcode is usually enough)? 

The tariff is an EDF one for economy 7 - 2 Year EDF Essentials April 2026 and the location is in NW England, CA12.

My December post was I think a tad premature in respect of the night storage heaters and was I suspect based on an incomplete understanding of what was actually happening.

What I have established since then, based on infrequent visits and snapshots of various time ranges acquired during those visits, is that there is no semblance of activity during the night with regard to night storage heaters. I have also now established that heat is being drawn during the day. Yesterday I turned one heater on at 1.45 pm and when I returned to the property at 8.45 pm it was hot to the touch. There were no other electric appliances on during that period, and the recording on the register was an increment of 3 units on the night time register.

EDF have previously confirmed that the off peak times appropriate to this tariff are 22.30pm to 12.30am and 2.30am to 7.30am.

I intend to report this back to EDF to see what they have to say. It remains to be seen how they will deal with it bearing in mind what I read somewhere that their complex meter team had been disbanded. We shall see.

Ildhund

Thank you. It's clear that things are not right with that meter, so it would help to see a couple of photos:

• A close-up of the meter clear enough for the markings and display to be legible. Touch a button if necessary to light up the screen.
• An overview of the meter backboard showing all the cables to and from the meter.
• A close-up of the consumer unit ('fuse box') with its lid propped open. If the individual switches or fuses inside are labelled, it would be good to be able to read the labels.
• A view of one of the storage heaters showing its power supply (supplies) and another close-up of its control panel. 

The 'normal' arrangement with a smart meter configured for Economy 7 is for the tariff switching table inside the meter to be set so that usage is recorded on the offpeak register from the start to the end of each offpeak period. Storage heaters - both for space heating and hot water - are fed from a dedicated circuit which is only live during offpeak hours, managed by a different timetable inside the meter. The two sets of timings should normally coincide, but sometimes they don't and changes have to be made.

It should therefore not be possible for a storage heater to become 'hot to the touch' after being switched on during the daytime peak period. Nor should it be possible for usage to be recorded on the offpeak register during peak hours. It would be as well to get precise details of what's happening before contacting customer support again; you ideally should be able to tell them exactly what's wrong and what needs to be done to put it right. 

inspectorperez

Ildhund said:

Thank you. It's clear that things are not right with that meter, so it would help to see a couple of photos:

• A close-up of the meter clear enough for the markings and display to be legible. Touch a button if necessary to light up the screen.
• An overview of the meter backboard showing all the cables to and from the meter.
• A close-up of the consumer unit ('fuse box') with its lid propped open. If the individual switches or fuses inside are labelled, it would be good to be able to read the labels.
• A view of one of the storage heaters showing its power supply (supplies) and another close-up of its control panel. 

The 'normal' arrangement with a smart meter configured for Economy 7 is for the tariff switching table inside the meter to be set so that usage is recorded on the offpeak register from the start to the end of each offpeak period. Storage heaters - both for space heating and hot water - are fed from a dedicated circuit which is only live during offpeak hours, managed by a different timetable inside the meter. The two sets of timings should normally coincide, but sometimes they don't and changes have to be made.

It should therefore not be possible for a storage heater to become 'hot to the touch' after being switched on during the daytime peak period. Nor should it be possible for usage to be recorded on the offpeak register during peak hours. It would be as well to get precise details of what's happening before contacting customer support again; you ideally should be able to tell them exactly what's wrong and what needs to be done to put it right. 

Many thanks for that very helpful response.

This is an image of the meter which I captured in December last year. This is attached to a large timber backplate which accomodates a number of other meters for the neighbouring apartments.

The storage heaters are Dimplex XL models which each have an input and output dial. These are the originals dating back to when the property was constructed in the 80's.

There are 2 separate fuse boxes within the property, one of which I believe to be the one dedicated to night time energy.

TBH, having received so many assurances from EDF prior to installation that it would work without problem despite providing them with full particulars about the communication difficulties which I perceived because of its location, I don't really feel inclined to do any more spade work for them in identifying what the issues may be, so long as it is not costing me money. This may seem a bit unkind, but I see this as something which the supplier needs to address and solve.

Swipe

The key question is what times are they coming on?

inspectorperez

Swipe said:

The key question is what times are they coming on?

Circa 10.00am

Scot_39

As long as you have notified them of the issue and have a record of doing so - or rather the occupant who pays the bills and under contract with EDF has (as you dont sound like normally resident there ?) it's really up to them.

But in past it's taken effort to convince the  of problems - the @Rosie1001 saga - when having fought for and had e10 for days they screwed up her ota update on Apr 1st and left her a mix of e10 and e7 a classic example.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6598246/smart-meter-timings

The meter is 5 port - the cable I guess marked 4 in line with other 3 is your normal live and the one proud of others marked 5 the restricted feed for your heating and hot water.

The photo isn't clear - but looks like maybe  an edmi es-12b and it has an indicator on the display for when the alcs port 5 contactor is made or not made - so supply to heaters active.. 

But it's important you get the correct model - as the meaning of symbols changed from say the earlier edmi es-10b. 

If 12b the manual is here

https://www.edmi-meters.com/europe/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/ES-12B-Product-Guide-v1.0.pdf

The little contactor on the meter screen - see page 18 -  tells you when the load control switch for port 5 is open so nsh etc feed is off on the 12b.  The 10b the opposite from another poster in another thread here.

A time stamped photo of the display with the symbol - and one with the rate showing your peak or off peak rate - and again that has tge l  symbol - would be best to send to edmi.  See menu structure p21 tariff now.

There's also reference in the manual to load control switch event logs which should in theory contain switching times - see p32/33.

Oh and check tge actual meter time and date is correct.

Examples of photos of the screens including price (tariffnow in menu) are in the @Rosie1001 threads she used to diagnose her meter problems - like when in Apr 1st OTA update they left her meter with e10 alcs and replaced e10 timings with e7 tariff timing settings - having set them correctly on install just days before.

If you want edf to fix try supplying the evidence of the faulty settings.

inspectorperez

Scot_39 said:

As long as you have notified them of the issue and have a record of doing so - or rather the occupant who pays the bills and under contract with EDF has (as you dont sound like normally resident there ?) it's really up to them.

But in past it's taken effort to convince the  of problems - the @Rosie1001 saga - when having fought for and had e10 for days they screwed up her ota update on Apr 1st and left her a mix of e10 and e7 a classic example.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6598246/smart-meter-timings

The meter is 5 port - the cable I guess marked 4 in line with other 3 is your normal live and the one proud of others marked 5 the restricted feed for your heating and hot water.

The photo isn't clear - but looks like maybe  an edmi es-12b and it has an indicator on the display for when the alcs port 5 contactor is made or not made - so supply to heaters active.. 

But it's important you get the correct model - as the meaning of symbols changed from say the earlier edmi es-10b. 

If 12b the manual is here

https://www.edmi-meters.com/europe/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/ES-12B-Product-Guide-v1.0.pdf

The little contactor on the meter screen - see page 18 -  tells you when the load control switch for port 5 is open so nsh etc feed is off on the 12b.  The 10b the opposite from another poster in another thread here.

A time stamped photo of the display with the symbol - and one with the rate showing your peak or off peak rate - and again that has tge l  symbol - would be best to send to edmi.  See menu structure p21 tariff now.

There's also reference in the manual to load control switch event logs which should in theory contain switching times - see p32/33.

Oh and check tge actual meter time and date is correct.

Examples of photos of the screens including price (tariffnow in menu) are in the @Rosie1001 threads she used to diagnose her meter problems - like when in Apr 1st OTA update they left her meter with e10 alcs and replaced e10 timings with e7 tariff timing settings - having set them correctly on install just days before.

If you want edf to fix try supplying the evidence of the faulty settings.

Thank you so much.

My meter is the 12B so the links you have provided are really helpful.

On my next visit to the property I now have a source of reference and there is certainly one basic thing I would like to check and that is the time and date clock just to make sure they are correct. Also the event logs may be helpful.

I guess as a user there is nothing I can do and indeed would not wish to attempt, in terms of changing settings and if my reading is correct, the equipment is to all intents and purposes locked down once it leaves the factory, subject to a suitably qualified person overriding the tamper controls.