RTS SHUTDOWN AND THTC

NorScot571

I am a customer with EDF living in Aberdeenshire with electricity as my primary source of heating. My heating is on a standard variable heating tariff and this controls timed power to my storage heaters and 24/7 power to my panel heaters etc, all controlled by a RTS meter. This setup is THTC and was originally installed by Scottish Hydro and has two meters. The RTS signal is due to be turned off and I have been aware of this situation for a number of years and have contacted the complex heating team at EDF on a large number of occasions enquiring what the situation is and the best advice I received was we have it in hand and will contact you. Having heard nothing and with time running out I again attempted to clarify the situation. I now find the complex metering team has been disbanded and I spoke to a general enquiry team member who I am not sure knew what THTC was and I was then passed to his supervisor who basically told me that I would need a single Economy 7 smart meter for all my power and any rewiring to accommodate it would be at my expense. This is a totally unacceptable solution. Apart from the considerable rewiring costs my heating charged at Standard Variable rate during the day thereby massively increasing costs. The information being put out by OFGEM is not accurate.  The meter does not switch tariffs all the power from the RTS/THTC meter is charged at the same heating tariff.  I have made my local MP aware and complained to EDF and the Ombudsman.  No resolution is at present forthcoming.  I wonder how may have blindly followed the advice and had their system rewired only to find they are no longer on a heating tariff during the day.

DE_612183

I thought the solution to RTS was just replace with a smart meter that has the same functionality?

I presume you have internet?

DE_612183

you could of course switch supplier to one who's dealing with this.

Scot_39

Search the Ovo forums - they are I believe replacing literally 1000s of THTC with preset time E10 smets2 smart meters - E10 doesnt give the old seasonal variaton, but that is then 10 hrs a day off peak - split 5 night, 3 afternoon and 2 evening iirc - exact timings regional - and what I have for my old lossy NSH with EOn (when they ripped out my old EMEB Heatwise twin meter RTS setup many years ago).

EDF have recently - in last 2 months - provided smart smets2 configured not for E7 but E10 to a legacy customer - previously on a split E7 with her old meter.

See threads by forumite @Rosie1001 - in her case she was iirc pseudo E7 but split with a 2hr afternoon boost on her old setup.  And wasnt happy to lose that with her NSH set-up.  She had a couple of issues - first persuading them to keep her afternoon slot - so not happy to accept the vanilla E7 first offered - and then second having the meter properly reconfigured - but now has a fully functional E10 setup.

Not that convinced their should be internal rewiring for THTC - I don't remember it coming up in recent posts on Ovo forum - but been a while since looked.

If you just have 1 normal 24/7 circuit and 1 restricted (time switched) set of circuits - maybe 2 seperate fuse boxes / consumers units - one live - one restricted time (hot water / NSH / heating) switched by RTS box currently - a modern 5 port smart meter with built in load control (ALCS in the jargon) or a 4 port with auxiliary contactor relay - driven by the meter (basically just the contactor / switch in a second box)  should work fine without internal wiring mods to your CU or beyond.

EDIT Ignore the above - do you have anything wired to the live 24/7 feed from your THTC RTS meter.  If so is it likely to be a significant share of your consumption

[There was actually a change to wiring to my CU - but then I had 2 seperate sets of restricted circuits - controlled by my old EMEB RTS meter - water and heating were 2 separate outputs - but these were simply fed in parallel in the meter cabinet - no internal wiring or cost - by the EOn meter fitter (well on the third visit by someone who had seen EMEB Heatwise RTS metering before)]

Sadly in my experience - for some in customer services E7 E10 THTC are just tariffs on a screen - some will have no clue about wiring / circuits etc.  Years ago the only sensible answers I got were from EOn's (NOT EOn Next) complex metering team - again AFAIK long since disbanded (not sure made it over to EOn Next domestic wing at any rate - that migration started iirc c5 years ago).

I would suggest you talk to EDF again - and insist on similar - if you think that might suit.

E10 is a higher cost than E7 - but I've kept mine - for years now - as I believe a better fit for my very old manual adjusted / lossy heaters.

And if you do end up stuck on E7 on your new smets2 - think about jumping to say snug octopus - at least the rates are cheaper and you will get 1 hr charging in afternoon in winter.

ChaunceyGardiner

Not that convinced their should be internal rewiring for THTC - I don't remember it coming up in recent posts on Ovo forum - but been a while since looked.

As designed, THTC allowed panel heaters and electric showers to be connected to a dedicated circuit which was permanently energised and charged at a lower rate. Perhaps this is the issue.

Ildhund

NorScot571 said:

Apart from the considerable rewiring costs my heating charged at Standard Variable rate during the day thereby massively increasing costs. ... they are no longer on a heating tariff during the day.

Your current complex multi-meter arrangement will be exchanged for a single smart meter. You should ask for a five-port meter, so that power at offpeak rates can be fed to storage heating equipment (for space and water). You could also ask whether an Economy 10 tariff is available as it is to EDF customers elsewhere.

One thing that goes away with the RTS signal is the 24-hour cheaper-rate heating circuit. There may be some rewiring required to feed panel heaters from the constant circuit, but it's not likely to be extensive. All energy consumed during offpeak hours will be billed at offpeak rates, regardless of what it's used for, so you may have to adjust your lifestyle to avoid increased costs. Economy 10 would allow you to use power-hungry equipment - electric shower, tumble dryer, cooker, washing machine, hoover, hair dryer for example - at the lower rate during the day. 

Scot_39

ChaunceyGardiner said:

Not that convinced their should be internal rewiring for THTC - I don't remember it coming up in recent posts on Ovo forum - but been a while since looked.

As designed, THTC allowed panel heaters and electric showers to be connected to a dedicated circuit which was permanently energised and charged at a lower rate. Perhaps this is the issue.

Yes sorry that would be a problem.  I thought it might be THTC - but was not entirely clear from Ovo or SP description that THTC had three circuits.  SP table says it is a 2 rate tariff - but not how that applies to circuits.  Which made me think I was confusing it with another.

https://www.ovoenergy.com/help/article/electric-heating/other-two-meter-tariffs

https://www.scottishpower.co.uk/energy-efficiency/energy-efficiency-toolkit/electric-heating

But SP do several three rate - day/night/comfort etc in that table.

This certainly ties in with your 3 circuits

https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/36092-total-heating-total-control-thtc-help/

And this one references 4 live feeds for different reasons - but suspect really only 3 - one live 24/7 but split ? and one restricted for THTC RTS.

https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/topic/38189-total-heating-total-control-wiring-issue/

So I've italicised the bit about if only 2 above.

A standard 5 port smart meter would not support three circuits to differentiate charging.

And although upto 7 port meters did / perhaps still do exist - one by Secure - iirc Model 114 (since replaced by 116 ? - which is smets2) actually mentioned THTC in its spec sheet - not sure these are being fitted by any UK suppliers.

So I wonder what Ovo are doing about it - if the panels / shower etc are moved - to be fed by unrestricted - then if you use them at peak rate times - they will be billed at peak rate.  Only if used at off peak will they be charged at the offpeak rate.

(An important distinction - as in general with modern digital / smart E7 or E10 - the time is the charge rate switch - not the circuitry - having stuff on restricted protects you from (normally) being charged at peak rates for it.  And off peak rates get applied to whole house regardless of what output wired to)

But in terms of having something that kind of works - even if not charged the same - it is an obvious option.

NorScot571

This is not an issue exclusive to EDF. It is indeed the cost of running the panel heaters, etc. during the day.  I dont tend to use the panel heaters when I am in bed at the time Economy 7 or 10 would be energised.  I cannot see any reason (apart from a deliberate policy to stop the tariffs) why it is not possible to replicate a 1980 meter.  As already mentioned there is a meter on the market It is time OFGEM stepped in and directed the Energy Companies to come up with a solution. The following is a direct lift from OFGEM the licensee must take all reasonable steps to provide a tariff that leaves the consumer  ‘no worse off’ than their existing arrangement as a result of an RTS meter upgrade.
That is not the case at presnt and OFGEM needs to step up to the mark and enforce the licence conditions.

Scot_39

Ildhund said:

NorScot571 said:

Apart from the considerable rewiring costs my heating charged at Standard Variable rate during the day thereby massively increasing costs. ... they are no longer on a heating tariff during the day.

Your current complex multi-meter arrangement will be exchanged for a single smart meter. You should ask for a five-port meter, so that power at offpeak rates can be fed to storage heating equipment (for space and water). You could also ask whether an Economy 10 tariff is available as it is to EDF customers elsewhere.

One thing that goes away with the RTS signal is the 24-hour cheaper-rate heating circuit. There may be some rewiring required to feed panel heaters from the constant circuit, but it's not likely to be extensive. All energy consumed during offpeak hours will be billed at offpeak rates, regardless of what it's used for, so you may have to adjust your lifestyle to avoid increased costs. Economy 10 would allow you to use power-hungry equipment - electric shower, tumble dryer, cooker, washing machine, hoover, hair dryer for example - at the lower rate during the day. 

My old RTS system had 3 meter tails going to consumer unit (sections in my case - often on older instals - seperate units ) - 1 from day meter - 2 from RTS meter / switch - so feeding 3 isolator switches - just wonder if the OPs might be similar.

And if that was the case couldn't that change be done in the meter cabinet though - by the meter fitter.  Like EOn did with my separate immersion and nsh feeds from the RTS meter. (Losing water only boost functionality - which I never used - and at least still worked).

So in the meter cabinet - the old RTS 24/7 live CU tail fed in parallel with the old domestic meter feed tail from new meter 24.7 (a simply Henley block type fix) - and only the restricted NSH style feed from old RTS by the new meter restricted feed ?

NorScot571

To explain my heating and normal domestic wiring is completely seperate with their own meter and consumer unit. The RTS meter provides timed pwer to storage heaters and 24/7 pwer to all other heating. It seems to me that if I do nothing the timing to the storage heaters may be disrupted but the 24/7 power which is not subject to the RTS switching would continue as per normal.  

DE_612183

NorScot571 said:

To explain my heating and normal domestic wiring is completely separate with their own meter and consumer unit. The RTS meter provides timed power to storage heaters and 24/7 power to all other heating. It seems to me that if I do nothing the timing to the storage heaters may be disrupted but the 24/7 power which is not subject to the RTS switching would continue as per normal.  

So have you got 2 meters and 1 Radio Tele-switch?

And are you saying that the tele-switch switches on the power to the storage heaters and triggers the meter to start recording.

I think this could be where the issue is - in this sort of old set up the RTS was responsible for actions both sides of the consumer unit.