Horizon parking PCN - help required

jrs101

Coupon-mad said:

No. Read recent POPLA appeals. By that I mean from this Spring.

Look at the one I just replied in 2 minutes ago for example.

i will assume you mean this one - Assessor Name: Jamie Macrae.

I looked at POPLAs response.

The 3 points I mention above appear to be correct.

it is not clear what I am putting in the POPLA.

thanks

For sanity my surmation points are:

A PCN appeal was declined (already complained strongly to retailer Tesco - no good, use the "process" was the reply).

Appeal rejected

Date of appeal response declined - 23rd April

I have a POPLA reference now.

Can someone confirm what I go to POPLA with (I recall some details about "Horizon POPLA DECISION" from the other month about "wording". Does this still apply? What is my way forward here?

Coupon-mad

Post 3 of the NEWBIES thread gives the usual POPLA appeal points and explains which box to tick.

No I didn't mean the MET parking case in POPLA decisions. That wasn't the post I made 2 minutes before replying to you.

On my profile you can find all my replies and here's your case and under it, you can see the one I replied on just 2 minutes before:

jrs101

Coupon-mad said:

Post 3 of the NEWBIES thread gives the usual POPLA appeal points and explains which box to tick.

No I didn't mean the MET parking case in POPLA decisions. That wasn't the post I made 2 minutes before replying to you.

On my profile you can find all my replies and here's your case and under it, you can see the one I replied on just 2 minutes before:

I think you mean this? :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TO9HFzvzCle3FkjX2jNfKc3rdt4nPF0R/view

Am I just including this for my POPLA? :

1. The Notice to Keeper does not repeat the information in the Notice to Driver –
Notice to Keeper does not meet PoFA 2012 requirements.
2. No Evidence of Period Parked – Notice to Keeper does not meet PoFA 2012
requirements.

1. The Notice to Keeper does not repeat the information contained in the Notice to
Driver – Notice to Keeper does not meet PoFA 2012 requirements.
The PoFA 2012 states in paragraph 8 (2) (c) State that a notice to driver relating to the
specified period of parking has been given and repeat the information in that notice
as required by paragraph 7 (2)(b), (c) and (f).
The notice to driver and the notice to keeper do not contain the same information.
The notice to driver alleges that the breach occurred at 11:02 am. The notice to
keeper however alleges that the breach occurred at 11:05 am. Clearly this fails to
meet the requirements of PoFA 2012 paragraph 8 (2)(c). On these grounds alone, the
PCN must be rejected by POPLA. I would like to remind you that Paragraph 7(2)(f) is

one of the specific pieces of information from a Notice to Driver that must be
repeated in a Notice to Keeper issued under paragraph 8 of schedule 4:
7(2) The notice must—
(f) specify the time when the notice is given and the date.

2. No evidence of period parked – Notice to Keeper does not meet PoFA 2012

requirements.
The PoFA 2012 states in paragraph 8 (2) (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on
which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates.
The Notice to Keeper does not state the period of time that the alleged breach
occurred. They only record a moment in time (and disagree with one another). Since
a moment in time is not a period of time, the Notice to Keeper fails again to meet the
requirements of PoFA 2012.

1505grandad

Please confirm as requested earlier that the driver has not been outed as you in any communications

Coupon-mad

jrs101 said:

Coupon-mad said:

Post 3 of the NEWBIES thread gives the usual POPLA appeal points and explains which box to tick.

No I didn't mean the MET parking case in POPLA decisions. That wasn't the post I made 2 minutes before replying to you.

On my profile you can find all my replies and here's your case and under it, you can see the one I replied on just 2 minutes before:

I think you mean this? :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TO9HFzvzCle3FkjX2jNfKc3rdt4nPF0R/view

Am I just including this for my POPLA? :

1. The Notice to Keeper does not repeat the information in the Notice to Driver –
Notice to Keeper does not meet PoFA 2012 requirements.
2. No Evidence of Period Parked – Notice to Keeper does not meet PoFA 2012
requirements.

1. The Notice to Keeper does not repeat the information contained in the Notice to
Driver – Notice to Keeper does not meet PoFA 2012 requirements.
The PoFA 2012 states in paragraph 8 (2) (c) State that a notice to driver relating to the
specified period of parking has been given and repeat the information in that notice
as required by paragraph 7 (2)(b), (c) and (f).
The notice to driver and the notice to keeper do not contain the same information.
The notice to driver alleges that the breach occurred at 11:02 am. The notice to
keeper however alleges that the breach occurred at 11:05 am. Clearly this fails to
meet the requirements of PoFA 2012 paragraph 8 (2)(c). On these grounds alone, the
PCN must be rejected by POPLA. I would like to remind you that Paragraph 7(2)(f) is

one of the specific pieces of information from a Notice to Driver that must be
repeated in a Notice to Keeper issued under paragraph 8 of schedule 4:
7(2) The notice must—
(f) specify the time when the notice is given and the date.

2. No evidence of period parked – Notice to Keeper does not meet PoFA 2012

requirements.
The PoFA 2012 states in paragraph 8 (2) (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on
which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates.
The Notice to Keeper does not state the period of time that the alleged breach
occurred. They only record a moment in time (and disagree with one another). Since
a moment in time is not a period of time, the Notice to Keeper fails again to meet the
requirements of PoFA 2012.

No. Not that.

You've picked out the two points from their appeal that DON'T apply to you and ignored the ones I suggested you add.

As I said already, in addition to what you already had about 'no keeper liability' (because that still seems to work at POPLA, in Horizon cases):

- you need the usual other two standard (all cases) POPLA appeal points that are already written and linked in the third post of the NEWBIES thread.

- to make it easier for you, as you were struggling to find those other standard two POPLA points, I suggested that you go and read that POPLA appeal because that included the two extra points.

To make it completely clear: I'm talking about 'unclear signs' and 'no landowner authority'.

Now please go back to the third post of the NEWBIES thread. Get those. Copy.

jrs101

1505grandad said:

Please confirm as requested earlier that the driver has not been outed as you in any communications

Yes, correct.

jrs101

Coupon-mad said:

jrs101 said:

Coupon-mad said:

Post 3 of the NEWBIES thread gives the usual POPLA appeal points and explains which box to tick.

No I didn't mean the MET parking case in POPLA decisions. That wasn't the post I made 2 minutes before replying to you.

On my profile you can find all my replies and here's your case and under it, you can see the one I replied on just 2 minutes before:

I think you mean this? :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TO9HFzvzCle3FkjX2jNfKc3rdt4nPF0R/view

Am I just including this for my POPLA? :

1. The Notice to Keeper does not repeat the information in the Notice to Driver –
Notice to Keeper does not meet PoFA 2012 requirements.
2. No Evidence of Period Parked – Notice to Keeper does not meet PoFA 2012
requirements.

1. The Notice to Keeper does not repeat the information contained in the Notice to
Driver – Notice to Keeper does not meet PoFA 2012 requirements.
The PoFA 2012 states in paragraph 8 (2) (c) State that a notice to driver relating to the
specified period of parking has been given and repeat the information in that notice
as required by paragraph 7 (2)(b), (c) and (f).
The notice to driver and the notice to keeper do not contain the same information.
The notice to driver alleges that the breach occurred at 11:02 am. The notice to
keeper however alleges that the breach occurred at 11:05 am. Clearly this fails to
meet the requirements of PoFA 2012 paragraph 8 (2)(c). On these grounds alone, the
PCN must be rejected by POPLA. I would like to remind you that Paragraph 7(2)(f) is

one of the specific pieces of information from a Notice to Driver that must be
repeated in a Notice to Keeper issued under paragraph 8 of schedule 4:
7(2) The notice must—
(f) specify the time when the notice is given and the date.

2. No evidence of period parked – Notice to Keeper does not meet PoFA 2012

requirements.
The PoFA 2012 states in paragraph 8 (2) (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on
which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates.
The Notice to Keeper does not state the period of time that the alleged breach
occurred. They only record a moment in time (and disagree with one another). Since
a moment in time is not a period of time, the Notice to Keeper fails again to meet the
requirements of PoFA 2012.

No. Not that.

You've picked out the two points from their appeal that DON'T apply to you and ignored the ones I suggested you add.

As I said already, in addition to what you already had about 'no keeper liability' (because that still seems to work at POPLA, in Horizon cases):

- you need the usual other two standard (all cases) POPLA appeal points that are already written and linked in the third post of the NEWBIES thread.

- to make it easier for you, as you were struggling to find those other standard two POPLA points, I suggested that you go and read that POPLA appeal because that included the two extra points.

To make it completely clear: I'm talking about 'unclear signs' and 'no landowner authority'.

Now please go back to the third post of the NEWBIES thread. Get those. Copy.

I am looking at:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1v_W_UseWdI_d_9WWMUfVecx0uDUYOwKs/view

Are we just saying? :

2) There are no entrance signs for the regular entry and signs in this car
park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces.
Furthermore, there is no marked parking bay at the location nor boundary
of the venue
3) No Evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict
proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

Furthermore are we saying I add these? :

1   I appeal as keeper.  I am not obliged to identify the driver and I decline to do so.

2  The PCN does not meet the wording requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA).

3  This is comparable to an earlier POPLA decision whereby the case was allowed, date of decision on 17/12/2024, POPLA code 3762434330.

thanks

Coupon-mad

Well your POPLA appeal won't just be headings of course, which is why the third post of the NEWBIES thread gives you the full wording.

jrs101

Coupon-mad said:

Well your POPLA appeal won't just be headings of course, which is why the third post of the NEWBIES thread gives you the full wording.

Can everyone offer their opinion here please?

Does this cover it? (Horizon PCN). If there is just base wording that is required to cancel this then please advise.

Thanks

 

POPLA Ref ...................

I am writing to you as the registered keeper and would be grateful if you would please consider my appeal for the following reasons.

1 The PCN does not meet the wording requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA).

2  This is comparable to an earlier POPLA decision whereby the case was allowed, date of decision on 17/12/2024, POPLA code 3762434330.

3 There are no entrance signs for the regular entry and signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces.  DO I NEED TO PUT THIS ? I GUESS THIS IS A MATTER OF OPINION

4 No Evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

 

I therefore request that POPLA uphold my appeal and cancel this PCN.

fisherjim

You do not use "matters of opinion" you use factual evidence you can't just say; There are no entrance signs for the regular entry and signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible, you need dated photographic evidence.

Horizon will provide photos or even office master copies of signage that POPLA will believe unless you counter their evidence with actual up to date photos.

You have to lead POPLA by the hand or they will just side with their paymasters.