Help with Two PCNs on Double Yellow Lines – Blue Badge Was Displayed (Private Land) UK CPM

DannyinLondon

Hi everyone,

I really hope someone can help us with this. RK recently received two Parking Charge Notices from the same location – the first one dated 18th April and the second 21st April. We only received both of them a few days ago, so I’m not sure if RK is already too late to challenge them.

Also, we have parked there many times before without any issues. This is the entrance into a Lidl car park that is tiny and everyone uses the disabled bays no matter if they have a badge or not. So most cars end us parking at the same place as us. You can see from the PCNs how dark this spot is and almost impossible to see or read this tiny sign.

The PCNs were issued by a private parking operator UK Car Park Management (see added photos).

Here are the details:

• Driver parked on double yellow lines, but had a valid Blue Badge clearly displayed in the vehicle.

• The location is a private car park, but there is no clear indication that you are entering private land — the only sign is a tiny one about 20 yards after turning off the main road.

• The sign is completely unreadable while driving, and even if standing directly below it, you’d need a magnifying glass to read the fine print. There’s absolutely no clear demarcation or barrier to show you’ve entered a private area.

• The double yellow lines continue directly from the public road into this private area, so we believed Blue Badge rules would still apply.

• We are both full-time carers for our disabled daughter and these fines are financially very stressful for us.

Our key concerns:

• Is the Blue Badge valid on these DYLs, even though it’s private land?

• Is the signage sufficient to create a valid contract, especially considering visibility and accessibility issues?

• Can we appeal both tickets based on unclear signage and reasonable belief that Blue Badge rules applied?

We would really appreciate any advice on how best to word our appeal and whether we have valid grounds to challenge these charges. Thank you so much in advance to anyone willing to help – this means a lot to our family.

Regards - stressed out family

kryten3000

DannyinLondon said:

Our key concerns:

• Is the Blue Badge valid on these DYLs, even though it’s private land?

• Is the signage sufficient to create a valid contract, especially considering visibility and accessibility issues?

• Can we appeal both tickets based on unclear signage and reasonable belief that Blue Badge rules applied?

We would really appreciate any advice on how best to word our appeal and whether we have valid grounds to challenge these charges. Thank you so much in advance to anyone willing to help – this means a lot to our family.

No, blue badges are not valid on private land, but the Equality Act 2010 does.

No, the signage is likely not sufficient, but it is also forbidding and unable to form a contract.

Don't overthink it, use the standard keeper appeal for each charge notice and then ignore UKCPM unless they send a letter of claim

Use plan A and complain to the landowner while you wait.  

No paying.

DannyinLondon

Thank you so much Kryten3000. This is what RK wanted to put in the appeal:

Re: PCN Number [PCN Number]

Dear Sir or Madam,

I am writing as the registered keeper of the vehicle in question. I dispute your 'parking charge' and deny any liability or contractual agreement with your company. I will also be raising a formal complaint with your client landowner regarding your predatory and misleading conduct.

No admission is made as to who was driving, and no assumptions should be drawn. The driver is not identified.

Your PCN lacks clarity and appears to be a generic template. Therefore, I request the following:

• A full explanation of the allegation;

• Your photographic evidence of the vehicle;

• A close-up, readable image of the signage you rely upon, clearly showing its content and position as it would have appeared to a driver on the material date.

This is a formal request under the British Parking Association Code of Practice and relevant consumer contract law. I expect a full response within the timeframes laid out in your appeal process.

Yours faithfully,

Name and address of RK

Do you think i should mention the blue badge at all? or that the sign is forbidding?

Thank you in advance - you are awesome

Gr1pr

Check with the local council where the actual boundary is

If its a private access road, with yellow lines etc, this is what your blue badge booklet says 

Private roads

Do not park unless you have permission from the owner

You should study what the blue badge booklet states about private property,  it's not the same as on public roads

I would not park that close to a road junction either , private or council

. parking opposite or within 10 metres (32 feet) of a junction,  except in an authorised parking space

• where it would make the road narrow, such as by a traffic island or roadworks

• where it would hold up traffic, such as in narrow stretches of  road or blocking vehicle entrances

Parking in forbidden areas or where it would endanger or  obstruct other road users is an offence, which could result in you receiving a parking fine. You could also be prosecuted, have your car towed away and the badge 

withdrawn

BTW, we are not telling you to pay,  but to definitely be more aware of the rules,  the differences,  the BB requirements imposed upon the badge holder or driver etc

fisherjim

This is exactly what scammers do, they copy DYLs as used by authorities to trap people into going against their made up rules which differ from the real thing.

If they don't want any parking there at any time they should copy the authority rules by putting two yellow lines on the kerb too. But of course that wouldn't trap as many people would it!

Coupon-mad

Do you think i should mention the blue badge at all?

Yes of course you should.

This will be the basis of any court claim defence later so spell it out now and don't even use a template. I wrote it (the template appeal) but I detest templates and hate having to even supply them. It irks me a lot but needs must on this forum otherwise neither we nor most newbies could cope.

DannyinLondon

Thank Gr1pr for the input, 
'Parking in forbidden areas or where it would endanger or  obstruct other road users is an offence, which could result in you receiving a parking fine. You could also be prosecuted, have your car towed away and the badge '

I think you misunderstood what i said - the PPC warning sign was 20 yard from the main road. Driver parked way way way after that and was not obstructing anyone - next to the car was probably enough space to turn the plane around. Reason driver parked there was simply too dark to see the sign. Driver did not know it was private land.

But thanks for the extra info and for trying to help. Its appreciated.
 

Umkomaas

This is a formal request under the British Parking Association Code of Practice and relevant consumer contract law. I

UKCPM is not a BPA AOS operator. Their relevant trade association is the International Parking Community (IPC). Just change the reference. 

DannyinLondon

OK this is my final version - can someone please confirm it is OK to send?

Dear Sir or Madam,

I am writing as the registered keeper of the vehicle in question. I dispute your 'parking charge' and deny any liability or contractual agreement with your company. I will also be raising a formal complaint with your client landowner regarding your predatory and misleading conduct.

No admission is made as to who was driving, and no assumptions should be drawn. The driver is not identified.

I will not be paying your demand for payment for the following reasons:

·         The signage you displayed is forbidding and unable to form a contract with anyone.

·         The signage is too small and the terms are microscopic for anyone to read especially if you can’t see without your glasses.

·         You have marked your road with double yellow lines – continuing from the main road. Obviously trying to trap people into going against your rules. If you don’t want people to park, why didn’t you use double red lines? You should copy the authority rules by putting two yellow lines on the curb too.

·         The occupier of the vehicle was a disabled child with severe epilepsy. The blue badge was displayed properly in the front windshield. The driver had to be close to the Lidl shop as if there was a serious epileptic seizure – need for emergency equipment, medication or possibly drive to hospital is paramount.

·         Parking occurred after normal working hours and all businesses this road is serving are closed at that time. The car was not obstructing any traffic or loading and unloading.

·         The charge is disproportionate and not commercially justifiable

The amount you have charged is not based upon any commercially justifiable loss to your company or the landowner.

 

Your PCN lacks clarity and appears to be a generic template. Therefore, I request the following:

·         A full explanation of the allegation;

·         Your photographic evidence of the vehicle;

·         A close-up, readable image of the signage you rely upon, clearly showing its content and position as it would have appeared to a driver on the material date.

This is a formal request under the International Parking Community (IPC) Code of Practice and relevant consumer contract law. I expect a full response within the timeframes laid out in your appeal process.

Yours faithfully,

Registered Keeper

THANK YOU ALL FOR HELPING AND FOR GIVING US YOUR TIME - YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME!

Gr1pr

DannyinLondon said:

Thank Gr1pr for the input, 
'Parking in forbidden areas or where it would endanger or  obstruct other road users is an offence, which could result in you receiving a parking fine. You could also be prosecuted, have your car towed away and the badge '

I think you misunderstood what i said - the PPC warning sign was 20 yard from the main road. Driver parked way way way after that and was not obstructing anyone - next to the car was probably enough space to turn the plane around. Reason driver parked there was simply too dark to see the sign. Driver did not know it was private land.

But thanks for the extra info and for trying to help. Its appreciated.
 

I was copying and pasting what the blue badge booklet says, downloaded as a pdf  ( its general public advice and lifted from the official booklet   )

As I mentioned earlier,  the council can tell you where the demarcation is between the public road  ( not main roads necessarily   ) and the private property. Yellow or even red lines are on both or all types of roads 

I do agree that the signage is inadequate,  it almost always is, I agree that demarcation lines are not always obvious.  I also agree that the government guidance on private property could be improved 

We see many demarcation cases on here, where boundaries are not obvious , where people have parked or stopped on private property,  roads, car parks etc,  especially trap sites where the unwary are caught out 

By all means mention the blue badge,  but be aware that it's a currently unregulated industry so it may come to fighting your invoices in civil court,  so study the whole topics, like we volunteers have done for over a decade,  because its extremely easy to get caught out, private parking companies thrive on the confusion 

But to be absolutely clear, I would not have parked where the 2 red squiggles are

DannyinLondon

Thank you again - driver has not parked 'where the 2 red squiggles are..' 
That was only to show that the DYL are continuing from the road. Driver parked some 100 yrds further down the road - where the road ends. The image you are looking at just shows the entrance into this so called private land - almost no indication apart from that small sign with two arrows i added pointing at it.