Deprivation of assets ?

Mgman1965

MIL owns her own house (early eighties, poorish health, mortgage free).

Me and OH own own home (virtually mortgage free)

Idea has been mooted by OH we both sell, combine money  and buy house with annex for MIL.

My concern is MIL is not in good health and where would we stand if had to go into residential care ?

Would LA consider combining our assets and buying house for us with annex for her be classed as deprivation of assets as they couldn't force a sale as house (Inc annex) would be in our name and our home) and say we have to bear full costs of her care ?

Or

They would not count the transaction as DOE and just what else (a car + few hundred pounds) she owns  ?

Brie

Similar to us a few years back - we sold ours, MiL (90 yo) sold hers and we all moved in together.  We would not have been able to buy as big a place (not huge) to accommodate us all without her contributing to the purchase.  But she could not be on the deed or mortgage.

When she needed to go into care the LA did make noises about DoA and that our house would need to be sold to pay the fees until they realised that I was already over 60 and thus couldn't make me homeless. 

The care home  fees were quickly burned through MiL's savings when she died but the LA had claimed that they would put a charge on the house to get back anything they had to pay for her.  I had consulted with a solicitor a couple of years earlier who claimed that the LA could not claim any portion of the house as without us looking after MiL for 5 years the LA would have had to been paying for care in her previous home all that time.  As a result of this discussion I kept records of how much we paid towards MiL's keep in our home and how much she contributed as well.  I found this very helpful when the LA started asking questions.

What you might want to consider is what will you do with the annex if MiL goes into care?  Would you be able to rent it out and therefore have income to pay towards the care?

Albermarle

If I was the LA, I would definitely see that as deprivation of assets.

As another point have you considered what would you do if the LA put your MIL in a horrible  low cost care home. Whereas if she kept her own property this could be sold to pay for somewhere nicer.

diggingdude

Sounds like MIL should make sure she safeguards herself 

Mgman1965

OH saw a couple on a property programme (escape to the country) looking for a property to do this with a parent by combining assets.

Suppose like a lot of programmes like this they only tell the positives and make it look easy and simple not mentioning the potential pitfalls and consequences (financial if care is needed, or other siblings feeling done out of their inheritance, or family, you fall out with parent big time)

Exodi

I was following, until near the end where it sounds like your MIL would not be on the deeds and you'd own 100% of the title in yours and your OH's name?

Mgman1965 said:

Would LA consider combining our assets and buying house for us with annex for her be classed as deprivation of assets as they couldn't force a sale as house (Inc annex) would be in our name and our home) and say we have to bear full costs of her care ?

It seems a bit of a stretch to feel aggrieved at having to bear the 'full costs of her care', if you put all of her money in your name 5 minutes before. You said yourself she's in poor-ish health.

Mgman1965 said:

Or

They would not count the transaction as DOE and just what else (a car + few hundred pounds) she owns  ?

The council would almost certainly consider this attempted deprivation of assets. If the intention is to put the house in your sole name (with your OH), I'd be minded to agree.

Obviously putting assets in someone elses name before an imminent care requirement is a textbook example of DoA. It's not a get-out-of-jail-free card if the beneficiary of said assets does not fancy handing them back over, I don't understand this defense at all.

What if she does need care? You've mentioned you don't fancy selling the new bigger house, so is the idea to put her in 'over-my-dead-body-grove', paid for by us?

(apologies if I've misunderstood, and the intention is for her to remain on the deeds).

youth_leader

Personally I wouldn't do it, I'd let your MIL have a look at a few establishments near you instead.  If her health is poor she might like to go into a nursing home now, rather than having to move out of assisted living if she gets worse. My aunt is 88 and interested in assisted living - but she's been scared off.  Her friend was in the home and sadly hospitalised for six months.  The £1500 rent, which includes bills and food, was still deducted from her account. As she now needs nursing she is having to leave.

As for leaving her home, your MIL might not want to.  I'm estranged from my family but find out about them through my aunt.  It seems my brother and SIL are now looking after my 92 year old Dad in a hospital bed in the front room of their house.  My Dad was hospitalised recently and was only allowed home if they agreed to this care, they have told my aunt 'they cannot leave him'.  My Dad owns a big house a few doors down from them, and apparently is 'refusing' to go into a home. 

Keep_pedalling

Would you actually want your MIL being dependant on a cash strapped LA for residential care? 

If you put more money in via the way of a mortgage she would be able to retain a larger savings pot to be used if the worse should happen. 

Mgman1965

Keep_pedalling said:

Would you actually want your MIL being dependant on a cash strapped LA for residential care? 

If you put more money in via the way of a mortgage she would be able to retain a larger savings pot to be used if the worse should happen. 

That's an idea we hadn't thought of.

Contrary to what some seem to think, it's not a scheme to avoid care costs but,

MIL was talking about equity release on her house and gifting family members the max she legally can "to stop the local council taking it" and we thought our idea could be a better solution. 

Maybe not., but it's her house and money to do as she wishes.

KxMx

Assets mean not only a choice of where she goes for care, but also when which believe me is also very important. 
(see previous posts of mine about a nightmare lasting years my friend had with her grandads care needs). 

Brie

Mgman1965 said:

Keep_pedalling said:

Would you actually want your MIL being dependant on a cash strapped LA for residential care? 

If you put more money in via the way of a mortgage she would be able to retain a larger savings pot to be used if the worse should happen. 

That's an idea we hadn't thought of.

Contrary to what some seem to think, it's not a scheme to avoid care costs but,

MIL was talking about equity release on her house and gifting family members the max she legally can "to stop the local council taking it" and we thought our idea could be a better solution. 

Maybe not., but it's her house and money to do as she wishes.

The LA would definitely consider that DoA and would go to the family members to pay for care.

As for some of the comments - if MiL wants to stay in her home and has no cash then the LA will fund carers to come to help her.  It's not a great system, carers change from day to day so no consistency, MiL doesn't get to know someone, carers are on very limited timescales (15 minutes at a time?).  She may want to do equity release to buy herself some decent care from a private agency. 

We did have an agency that was really good with my MiL who would ensure she had a shower and hair washed (MiL accepted it from them rather than us) and would change the bed and sit and chat with her about what she did in the war etc.  It was a once a week visit as we were there the rest of the time and funded easily from her attendance allowance.  As I recall it was about £15 an hour plus £15 per visit so a 3 hour visit would cost £60.  And it meant that we could leave her and go out and do things on our own.