Obtaining garden slabs that are owed to us.

Section62

CTM80 said:

TheSpectator said:

CTM80 said:

TheSpectator said:
I'd wager a bet that the slabs don't exist.

Yes, this is definitely a possibility, but if we allow for odd behaviour due to his ADHD and other stresses I mentioned, and assume for now that he DOES have them, can we just turn up and take them from his drive?

Playing Devils Advocate, what proof do you have that those particular slabs, if there are any, belong to you. Without proof you cannot just take something and even if you did have proof it's a grey area as far as the law is concerned.

Yes this was what I thought. We're having a family disagreement about it. Do you have any expertise in this though or is it just a gut feeling like my own? The counter-argument is that at least there's no breaking and entering involved if they're on his drive or (i.e. not-fenced-off) front lawn.

That isn't a counter argument.  If there are slabs are on his property you don't know they are yours, you can't just rock up and take what you think might be yours because they might not be.

That you think the slabs belong to you doesn't matter.  It would be no different to the situation if the slabs had been dropped off by the supplier on your driveway and before you got home some passing landscaper had decided to help themselves.

CTM80 said:

If he's got slabs there that match the ones owed to us, who else would they belong to if he no longer does landscaping?

Another customer? Him?  The supplier (if they haven't been paid for)?

CTM80 said:

Does giving him advance notice that we are coming cover us in any way?
....

Not really.  If he agrees the slabs are yours and you can collect them then you are fine to do so.  But you can't assume a lack of response to your messages is agreement you can take materials from his property.

To do so lawfully you would first need to go to court to get an order confirming the slabs are yours and that you are entitled to recover them.

Section62

The_Unready said:

Who'd be a builder? Countless numbers of them have potential life-limiting conditions and close family members with serious illnesses. It sounds like a very traumatic profession!

It is.

Working outdoors in all weathers, exposed to noise, chemicals and dusts.  At risk of trips, slips and falls, as well as joint and muscle damage from lifting and carrying.

Then if you work for yourself or run a business there's the stress of where the next job is coming from, juggling many tasks and projects, keeping records of what you are doing and what you are buying, dealing with the VATman, and if you want to avoid the risks above (and keep HSE off your back) then all the H&S training and paperwork.

All the time dealing with some clients who want quotes, but have no real intention of giving you the job (there's the 'cash' builder they've got lined up).  Or clients who want to leave everything to the last minute and then expect miracles to be performed, those who can't understand why their job isn't your number 1 priority today, and others who are convinced they could do the job so much better than you can and don't mind telling you at every opportunity (though usually only when it comes to paying your final invoice).

And then very often working on your own with nobody (except the family) to talk about your problems with.  No HR department, no workplace counsellor.

There are undoubtably some builders who take the proverbial, but there are also a great many who have ended up bankrupt, or with serious health issues from their work, and some driven mental health breakdowns and sadly to suicide. If it were so easy then there would be no great need for builders, as everyone would be doing it all themselves.

I wouldn't be a builder myself, but from personal experience I have huge respect for those who try to do the best job they can, even when everything is stacked against them.

(none of the above is a comment on the OP's case, I don't know enough about that to comment)

WIAWSNB

CTM80 said:

If the slabs are our property and are sitting on his front drive, can we just turn up and take them (so long as we let him know that we are planning to do so)?

Slightly grey area, and - based on what you have told us - almost certainly wouldn't cause an issue, but it's potentially fraught.

Is it ok to 'trespass' on someone else's driveway? Yes, provided you have a legitmate reason - you are visiting/delivering/picking up/carrying out a helpful action/jumping out of the way of a speeding Tesla/ etc etc. So, that bit should be ok. If you went there and went on their driveway in order to examine these goods to check they are yours, then you'd be acting within the law, afaIac. Obvs you should ring their door first. But, if you belive that these goods are yours, and you are explaining to the builder that you wish to collect them since they are your property, a Bobby should not interfere, execpt to say, "C'mon, lads - let's be sensible about this..."

Are you entitled to collect items that you have bought and paid for? I'd say so, too.

Put them together, and there is no way on earth that I can see a law enforcement officer insisting you return them, take any action against you for removing them, or accusing you of theft.

You'd better make darned sure they are yours, tho'

Have you driven past their house? Are the items even there? Are they in a front-of-house pickupable location? If so, then a message to the cove to say, "To save you the trouble, I'll pick these up at around 2pm this afternoon - ok? Cheers."

I'm not saying you should do this, but just suggesting that it'll almost certainly be ok to do so, with the above provisos. 

TheSpectator

Let's be honest, the 'additional' slabs probably don't exist - why would only these alleged 'spare' ones be delivered to the landscaper and not with the original batch that have already been fitted (presumably delivered to the OP's address?)

How much are they worth?

Section62

WIAWSNB said:

CTM80 said:

If the slabs are our property and are sitting on his front drive, can we just turn up and take them (so long as we let him know that we are planning to do so)?

...

Is it ok to 'trespass' on someone else's driveway? Yes, provided you have a legitmate reason - you are visiting/delivering/picking up/carrying out a helpful action/jumping out of the way of a speeding Tesla/ etc etc. So, that bit should be ok. If you went there and went on their driveway in order to examine these goods to check they are yours, then you'd be acting within the law, afaIac. Obvs you should ring their door first. But, if you belive that these goods are yours, and you are explaining to the builder that you wish to collect them since they are your property, a Bobby should not interfere, execpt to say, "C'mon, lads - let's be sensible about this..."

...

It sounds like you are talking about the implied right of access, but you are getting things muddled up and misleading the OP.

The implied right of access allows you to walk up to the front door to knock on it/ring the doorbell if you want to speak to the occupant, or to deliver something, or put something (lawful) in the letterbox.  The right can be withdrawn, in which case the above would be trespass, unless the person is acting with a statutory authority.

The implied right of access doesn't allow you to wander around on someone's driveway, nor examine their property.  Nor does it permit you to take anything, even if you think it is yours.

Advising the OP this would be Ok and a "Bobby" should not interfere is wrong, and bad advice.  The OP would be risking an accusation of theft, and possible prosecution or other legal action.

If you thought B&Q owed you some money do you think it would be Ok to visit a B&Q store and walk out with paving slabs to the value of what you are owed?  Do you think that wouldn't be theft because they owe you?

Section62

TheSpectator said:

Let's be honest, the 'additional' slabs probably don't exist - why would only these alleged 'spare' ones be delivered to the landscaper and not with the original batch that have already been fitted (presumably delivered to the OP's address?)
...

The OP explained, the number required was miscalculated and there were too few to finish the job.  The landscaper ordered more, for delivery to his property as there would be nobody at the OP's property to accept delivery.

There is nothing wrong or "sus" in that.

There's also no point speculating about the situation if the basic facts are being ignored.

ButterCheese

You could always go down the route of sending another message to say "we will collect the paving slabs on x date - if we do not hear anything further then we will assume that you have no objections to this, given that we have paid for them and they are ours".  Give him chnace to respond, say 7 days.

If the 10 slabs are on the driveway then it is highly unlikely that they are someone else's.  If there is more than one pile of 10 slabs then just take yours.  If there are no slabs, take a picture and go from there.  He's either having a family/personal crisis or he's trying to diddle you, which seems unlikely given that you seem to know where he lives

Section62

ButterCheese said:

....

If the 10 slabs are on the driveway then it is highly unlikely that they are someone else's.  If there is more than one pile of 10 slabs then just take yours.  If there are no slabs, take a picture and go from there.  He's either having a family/personal crisis or he's trying to diddle you, which seems unlikely given that you seem to know where he lives

How do you know this? It is no more than a guess.  There's fundamental flaw in some of the advice the OP is getting that having paid the landscaper for the job means the materials (slabs) not yet installed belong to the OP.

The legal situation - from the information the OP has given and assuming the landscaper has paid the supplier - is probably that the slabs belong to the landscaper, and the OP has no right to take them.  But they could belong to the supplier, or to another customer.  There is no way of knowing just by looking at a pile of slabs that they are the ones that 'belong' to the OP.

Going back a few steps.  The OP (presumably) contracted with the landscaper to lay a patio and path.  They paid the contractor in full for the work.  The contractor has failed to complete the work - they say due to a shortage of materials which they have subsequently ordered and had delivered to their property.

In that situation the law is fairly clear - the OP is entitled to expect the contractor to complete the work paid for, or else agree a refund of part of the cost of the work and/or the cost of paying someone else to complete the job if the contractor is unwilling/unable to do so.

If the contractor doesn't complete the work and doesn't agree to a refund, then the OP has a legal remedy via the courts - most likely a small claim.

The OP has paid the contractor to supply and install some slabs, but that doesn't give them an entitlement to simply go to the contractors property and take any materials they think might be the ones intended for use on their project.

The situation would be slightly different if the OP had purchased and paid for the materials directly from the supplier, but even then cannot simply go to the landscaper's property and take them.  There is a legal process to follow.

The details will depend on the contract between the landscaper and the OP, as well as whether the landscaper has paid the supplier for them.  But whatever the details, the OP has no lawful right to go to the landscaper's property and remove items, even if they think they belong to them.

silvercar

If you collect the slabs, there is less chance the builder will get them laid correctly.

Yorkie1

Section62 said:

ButterCheese said:

....

If the 10 slabs are on the driveway then it is highly unlikely that they are someone else's.  If there is more than one pile of 10 slabs then just take yours.  If there are no slabs, take a picture and go from there.  He's either having a family/personal crisis or he's trying to diddle you, which seems unlikely given that you seem to know where he lives

How do you know this? It is no more than a guess.  There's fundamental flaw in some of the advice the OP is getting that having paid the landscaper for the job means the materials (slabs) not yet installed belong to the OP.

The legal situation - from the information the OP has given and assuming the landscaper has paid the supplier - is probably that the slabs belong to the landscaper, and the OP has no right to take them.  But they could belong to the supplier, or to another customer.  There is no way of knowing just by looking at a pile of slabs that they are the ones that 'belong' to the OP.

Going back a few steps.  The OP (presumably) contracted with the landscaper to lay a patio and path.  They paid the contractor in full for the work.  The contractor has failed to complete the work - they say due to a shortage of materials which they have subsequently ordered and had delivered to their property.

In that situation the law is fairly clear - the OP is entitled to expect the contractor to complete the work paid for, or else agree a refund of part of the cost of the work and/or the cost of paying someone else to complete the job if the contractor is unwilling/unable to do so.

If the contractor doesn't complete the work and doesn't agree to a refund, then the OP has a legal remedy via the courts - most likely a small claim.

The OP has paid the contractor to supply and install some slabs, but that doesn't give them an entitlement to simply go to the contractors property and take any materials they think might be the ones intended for use on their project.

The situation would be slightly different if the OP had purchased and paid for the materials directly from the supplier, but even then cannot simply go to the landscaper's property and take them.  There is a legal process to follow.

The details will depend on the contract between the landscaper and the OP, as well as whether the landscaper has paid the supplier for them.  But whatever the details, the OP has no lawful right to go to the landscaper's property and remove items, even if they think they belong to them.

Just adding to Section62's clear post, in particular to the para I've placed in bold:

Presumably, the quote and subsequent contract was based on xxx number of slabs for the job. OP says they have paid the quote / contract in full.

Where yyy extra slabs are now needed to complete the job, owing to inaccorate specification, it would seem that the OP has not yet paid for those slabs (unless I have missed it in the thread). Therefore they would not yet be owned by the OP and therefore could not be collected by the OP, even without all the separate complications of trespass etc.