Advice with landlord trying to claim full deposit following end of tenancy.

gazfocus

We recently moved out of a property that we were renting and prior to doing so had someone in to clean the property. 

Stupidly we didn’t check every nook and cranny of the house after it was cleaned and according to the check out inventory, there was quite a bit missed (mainly windows, oven wasn’t cleaned, and a stain on some kitchen tiles). 

Anyway, the letting agent has been in touch today to say the landlord wants to claim the full deposit. The main things are £600 for cleaning, £1400 for decorating throughout due to marks on the walls and various small charges such as £150 for light bulbs, £20 for thermostat batteries, £50 to remove two sets of curtains and a bath mat we left… they are essentially ‘claiming’ more than our deposit was. 

My main argument is that there was no check in inventory when we moved into the property and the walls had marks all over them when we moved in - they certainly weren’t freshly painted (incidentally we offered to touch up the walls when we told the landlord we were moving and they said they will decorate anyway so not to bother). The check out inventory also states that the walls are to be expected allowing for wear and tear so I don’t see how the landlord can expect us to pay for them to redecorate. 

I’ve disputed the amounts they are claiming and the deposit is now in dispute and awaiting evidence. 

I intend to submit the checkout inventory showing that the walls were ‘wear and tear’ but is there anything else you’d recommend I submit as evidence? Is it worth me submitting screenshots of how much light bulbs would cost to show their claim of £150 is excessive? 

I have offered the landlord a total of £295 to contribute towards cleaning and light bulbs but they’ve clearly not accepted this so now I’m anxious that they’re going to end up with a lot more than is fair. 

Sam_666

Nothing to worry about if your deposit is in valid deposit protection scheme.
Who are you disputing issues with? Hopefully with deposit protection scheme and not with EA.
Have you been server details of your deposit scheme?

EA/Landlord are just trying it on, hoping you havent got a clue.
Check Shelter website for detailed advice.

gazfocus

Sam_666 said:

Nothing to worry about if your deposit is in valid deposit protection scheme.
Who are you disputing issues with? Hopefully with deposit protection scheme and not with EA.
Have you been server details of your deposit scheme?

EA/Landlord are just trying it on, hoping you havent got a clue.
Check Shelter website for detailed advice.

Deposit is in a custodial scheme with DPS. It’s all being dealt with through the DPS site so they initially asked for the full deposit, then I disagreed so they went back to the landlord (their Letting Agents have been filing on their behalf) for the landlord to itemise everything.

They came back claiming £2,530 and our deposit was £1,903). In that claim was £600 for cleaning (windows inside and out and a full deep clean including carpets), £1,400 for decorating, £200 for ‘damage’ which wasn’t mentioned in the check out report and a few smaller bits. 

I think my biggest concern is that with the letting agent submitting the reports to DPS, are they more likely to know what they will get away with or have ways of making things appear more expensive than they are? One of the things they are claiming is £50 to remove two curtains, a bath mat and a handheld steam cleaner we forgot to take with us. I mean, really?

saajan_12

Sounds like you're doing just fine. 
Its up to the LL to prove the costs eg why x number of lightbulbs should cost £150, not your responsibility to disprove it. However where you might want to show proof is any pictures you have of the issues at the start of your tenancy and how clean you left it at the end.

Re the specific claims:

gazfocus said:

The main things are £600 for cleaning, £1400 for decorating throughout due to marks on the walls and various small charges such as £150 for light bulbs, £20 for thermostat batteries, £50 to remove two sets of curtains and a bath mat we left… they are essentially ‘claiming’ more than our deposit was. 

£600 is a lot for cleaning, and unless they have pictures of several issues, they can't just charge for a whole property clean, maybe just a few hours to address a few specific areas. 

£1400 for decorating is betterment unless they're reducing by a % for how old the decor was by the end of your tenancy. Plus are the marks general discolouration (likely wear & tear) or from holes / adhesives / pen marks etc (likely damage)

£150 and £20 sounds excessive for lightbulbs and batteries respectively. They can charge labour to get them fitted, but £20 for one hour should more than cover the lot, plus a couple of £ per bulb or battery. 

£50 for household waste removal might be okay if the curtains are too large to fit into the wheelie bins (are they?) and need taking to the dump or potentially via a commercial waste company. 

gazfocus said:

I have offered the landlord a total of £295 to contribute towards cleaning and light bulbs but they’ve clearly not accepted this so now I’m anxious that they’re going to end up with a lot more than is fair. 

This sounds reasonable, with some tinkering of the numbers to include some waste removal costs within the £300 too. If the LL goes for it, then it'll cut the debate short and stop the stress. If not, then the dispute scheme may well find even less than this, so I wouldn't worry. 

RHemmings

Make sure that you make it very clear in all communications with the DPS that there was no inventory at the start of the rental. This is the biggest advantage you have, as it's up to the LL to prove that you have damaged the property more than could be described as normal wear and tear. 

The £295 you have offered sounds, from your description, already generous and more than fair. When I had a dispute with a landlord two years ago, my deposit was held by the DPS, the landlord was not prepared to negotiate in the slightest and kept insisting on a large deduction. It came down to me saying to the EA that clearly we weren't going to agree and that we should then proceed to arbitration. The EA/LL then immediately backed down and accepted my last offer. Note: my offer included 3hrs of additional cleaning at £20 an hour which I described as generous. The property was very clean when I left, and they clearly went around with a fine tooth comb looking for anything they could claim was not clean and then claim hundreds on it. But, back to you as you (OP) are already in dispute. 

Note that even though the listing for when you rented the property will not be visible on Rightmove (assuming it was on Rightmove), if you have the link stored anywhere (e.g. did you send it to someone), the link [b]might[/b] still work. If so, you can obtain the photos from when the house was advertised, and if there are marks etc. visible then that helps your case. (I did this to counter claims that ivy had grown over an outbuilding - I could show it was just as overgrown when I moved in.) 

Communication with the landlord where they told you not to bother touching up any marks also becomes evidence. If this goes to dispute, please include that. 

You don't, that I could see, tell us how long you were in the house? It makes a big difference if it's 6 months or 6 years. How  long were you there? 

gazfocus

RHemmings said:

Make sure that you make it very clear in all communications with the DPS that there was no inventory at the start of the rental. This is the biggest advantage you have, as it's up to the LL to prove that you have damaged the property more than could be described as normal wear and tear. 

The £295 you have offered sounds, from your description, already generous and more than fair. When I had a dispute with a landlord two years ago, my deposit was held by the DPS, the landlord was not prepared to negotiate in the slightest and kept insisting on a large deduction. It came down to me saying to the EA that clearly we weren't going to agree and that we should then proceed to arbitration. The EA/LL then immediately backed down and accepted my last offer. Note: my offer included 3hrs of additional cleaning at £20 an hour which I described as generous. The property was very clean when I left, and they clearly went around with a fine tooth comb looking for anything they could claim was not clean and then claim hundreds on it. But, back to you as you (OP) are already in dispute. 

Note that even though the listing for when you rented the property will not be visible on Rightmove (assuming it was on Rightmove), if you have the link stored anywhere (e.g. did you send it to someone), the link [b]might[/b] still work. If so, you can obtain the photos from when the house was advertised, and if there are marks etc. visible then that helps your case. (I did this to counter claims that ivy had grown over an outbuilding - I could show it was just as overgrown when I moved in.) 

Communication with the landlord where they told you not to bother touching up any marks also becomes evidence. If this goes to dispute, please include that. 

You don't, that I could see, tell us how long you were in the house? It makes a big difference if it's 6 months or 6 years. How  long were you there? 

Thanks for this. We were in the house for two years. 

I do still have the photos from the Rightmove listing when we got the house but the issue with those is that the photos were taken when the landlords own possessions were in the house while they still lived there - we were the second set of tenants and the decorating had been done while the landlord still lived there and has been present for two tenancies. I might be able to compare photos from the checkout inventory report to the Rightmove photos to illustrate marks matching up with the landlords furniture, etc but as I say, the checkout inventory already says things such as “Good condition, consistent with use. There are marks on the walls due to general wear and tear, could do with a touch up” so I don’t see how they could then claim for decorating costs. 

Unfortunately the communication with the landlord where we were told not to bother touching up the walls was verbal so we have nothing in writing. 

I want to try and be fair, although the landlord clearly doesn’t have the same courtesy but that’s why I offered £295. I acknowledge from the many pictures and comments in the checkout inventory about there being areas that need further cleaning (the odd crumb in the kitchen cupboards, oven wasn’t cleaned (apparently this was an extra service we didn’t know we had to request from the cleaner as wasn’t included in the end of tenancy clean, dust on pendant lights, dirty windows inside and out, etc) so I agree it would be fair to pay for further cleaning but asking £600 is a bit steep. 

I should also say, the house is on a farm, there is a lot of dust, mud and sand on the farm due to poorly maintained driveways/paths so it’s also unrealistic in my mind to expect perfectly clean windows.

gazfocus

As a side note, I’ve just noticed that on the DPS website, it says the tenancy was for 6 months and ended in October 2023 which is obviously incorrect. Is it likely that the LA have done that to try and gain an advantage in the adjudicator deciding whether the wear and tear is reasonable over a 6 month tenancy instead of a 2 year tenancy?

deannagone

Include your first tenancy agreement to prove date of moving in, or bank details showing rent payments (with other details missing).  You can prove that the property was last decorated at least two years before you moved in with the original listing and two tenancies before you.., so decorating costs is definitely betterment.  Dusty lampshades, dirty windows can be cleaned quite quickly by a professional, oven cleaning more expensive.  Or you could argue previous tenants contributed to the dirt build up as place wasn't cleaned properly before you moved in (particularly if you have any emails/pictures showing this).  Obviously point out the check out report, definitely point out no check in report (so no proof its you that created the 'wear and tear').  I am not sure I'd mention an amount you are prepared to pay, I'd expect a lower amount to be awarded to the LL.  DPS can see a LL charging over the top to get anything he can from a mile off.  He would need before and after tenancy pictures to make much of an impression.

And I'm afraid, next time, clean up yourself, (its really not hard, google anything you aren't sure of, start a month before you move out, clean a room at a time, then have a good vacuum, making sure you get skirting boards and picture rails if there are any) rather than relying on a cleaning company.  The cleaners don't really care like you would. You can often mop walls quite quickly if they are painted.  But like I said, google any stains you aren't sure of.

mlz1413

Do you have an invoice for your end I've tenancy clean?  This could be used as evidence of the cost of re-cleaning the bits missed. If not maybe get a couple of quotes to submit.

Do you have an email or text where you were told not to touch up the walls as LL was going to redecorate? This is evidence of that you shouldn't be paying £1400 to them.

I'd say £50 to remove items is fair, as someone has to remove and pay for commercial disposal. 

£150 for light bulbs is laughable.  But is it only bulbs or is it fittings?

Your situation is exactly why Deposit Schemes were set up. 
Good luck!

bouicca21

Can’t add much to the advice already given, but I’m intrigued by the lightbulbs and batteries.  Did OP take them? Or did they come to the end of their lives?

saajan_12

gazfocus said:

As a side note, I’ve just noticed that on the DPS website, it says the tenancy was for 6 months and ended in October 2023 which is obviously incorrect. Is it likely that the LA have done that to try and gain an advantage in the adjudicator deciding whether the wear and tear is reasonable over a 6 month tenancy instead of a 2 year tenancy?

Its probably a mistake. The adjudicator would plainly see that we're in 2025 not 2023, else they wouldn't help for a tenancy that ended 1.5 years ago. 

Are you sure its not saying 6 month fixed term and then rolling? Either there is another separate period of protection that isn't showing on your view, in which case its all fine. Or it wasn't protected for the full period and you can claim the penalty of 1-3x the deposit on top. 

At this stage, I would dig around the DPS website or even contact them and the other two schemes or as a last resort ask the LL to prove it was protected Oct 2023- end of tenancy. If they can't, then you have two choices:
- Offer to settle for £0 deduction so full deposit return within x days in return for not going after the penalty
- continue this process about deductions, and then file a claim for non protection. This will likely be more profitable but more hassle.