Standing Charges: Gas & Electricity

Qyburn

QrizB said:

Cutting the personal tax-free allowance by £5k a year would raise an additional £1k a year from the vast majority of adults, working or retired. 

I know that's not a serious suggestion, but if funded from general taxation wouldn't you be obliged to make the services available to everyone?  Actually, still in fantasy land, how about adding a thousand or so onto Council Tax instead. Those without gas would get a reduction, just like we do for houses that don't have public water or sewerage. 

QrizB

Qyburn said:

I know that's not a serious suggestion, but if funded from general taxation wouldn't you be obliged to make the services available to everyone?

I think Openreach have a universal service obligation; if you want a phone line, they're obliged to connect you. We could give the electricity DNOs a similar obligation.

Gas is trickier, I realise.

Qyburn said:

Actually, still in fantasy land, how about adding a thousand or so onto Council Tax instead. Those without gas would get a reduction, just like we do for houses that don't have public water or sewerage. 

You could indeed. And for the water standing charges in England & Wales, too. You could call it something like "water rates".

Scot_39

If people want to ignore publicalky available info and post regardless ....

As a low - sub median tdcv - arguably I might just benefit a tiny amount from zero SC.

But I totally disagree with the idea, despite at time.es recently my SC taking up nearly a 1/4 of annual bill - slightly more at last summer wholsale low, slightly less now since SC dropped c10% and  after recent wholesale price increases.

debitcardmayhem

Scot_39 said:

If people want to ignore publicalky available info and post regardless ....

As a low - sub median tdcv - arguably I might just benefit a tiny amount from zero SC.

But I totally disagree with the idea, despite at time.es recently my SC taking up nearly a 1/4 of annual bill - slightly more at last summer wholsale low, slightly less now since SC dropped c10% and  after recent wholesale price increases.

I preferred your post, pre edit Scot 

Greytopp

Why should fixed costs not be included in the price, I mean when you fill up your car you pay for what you get, they don't ask you to contribute to the fixed costs that they have, which are probably quite high.
If you go to a Supermarket to buy food the fixed costs are included in the price.

GingerTim

Greytopp said:

Why should fixed costs not be included in the price, I mean when you fill up your car you pay for what you get, they don't ask you to contribute to the fixed costs that they have, which are probably quite high.
If you go to a Supermarket to buy food the fixed costs are included in the price.

Are you able to get fuel and groceries piped into your home, available 24/7, at the flick of a switch? It's not really a useful analogy.

MeteredOut

Greytopp said:

Why should fixed costs not be included in the price, I mean when you fill up your car you pay for what you get, they don't ask you to contribute to the fixed costs that they have, which are probably quite high.
If you go to a Supermarket to buy food the fixed costs are included in the price.

If you're going to give lazy analogies, can you please read the thread first so you don't simply repeat the ones already given? At least get creative.

born_again

Greytopp said:

Why should fixed costs not be included in the price, I mean when you fill up your car you pay for what you get, they don't ask you to contribute to the fixed costs that they have, which are probably quite high.
If you go to a Supermarket to buy food the fixed costs are included in the price.

Of course you do... It is costed within retailer profit. just the same as a supermarket adds in the fixed costs.🤦‍♀️
Fuel is made up like this

This can be split into roughly six parts:

1. The wholesale cost of petrol or diesel, determined by the price of oil. Oil is sold in US dollars so the strength of the pound also plays a role
2. Biofuel content, the cost of making fuel more eco-friendly
3. Retailer profit margins, the cut taken by garages and supermarkets who sell you the fuel
4. Delivery and distribution costs for taking the fuel from A to B
5. Fuel duty, the specific government tax on fuel
6. VAT, added on top of product-specific taxes

https://www.lookers.co.uk/blog/how-is-the-cost-of-fuel-broken-down

Scot_39

Greytopp said:

Why should fixed costs not be included in the price, I mean when you fill up your car you pay for what you get, they don't ask you to contribute to the fixed costs that they have, which are probably quite high.
If you go to a Supermarket to buy food the fixed costs are included in the price.

You have driven your car to the filling station - or the supermarket etc - you haven't asked them to drive it to your door.

But you can ask the supermarket to deliver your weekly shop - rather than getting in your car - bus taxi etc - and you do have a one off transport cost.  

You pay the supermarket to deliver - and if like the 2 I have used in past - they even use surge pricing - popular slots cost more than the cheap ones - £s more - and their is often an additional charge if order value below a threshold on top of the slot price.  

At asda for instance - order less than £40 - attracts a £3 fee - Tesco under £50 - a £5 fee (*).

Shops actually charging a real premium overhead for "low users".

Asda lowest delivery fee - iirc £1.50 - there ave c£4.50 according to (*)

Both are added to the standard pricing for goods.  Theres no discount for adding the fixed cost overheads.

(*) from

https://www.lovefood.com/guides/3444/cheapest-supermarket-online-delivery-deals-asda-tesco-iceland-cost#

That £3 or £5 etc - often exactly the opposite of what low energy users want from scrapping SC.

Imagine if your SC went up because you used less than the TDCV ?Its not a sensible argument - but it is the flip side - based on the same industry - but bringing total supply to your door into focus.

Edit - and thiknking about it 

whereas the grid is fairly efficient (losses around 1.5%-2% - years old figures were 1.8% iirc) - local distribution is less so - adding another 5-8% depending on location.

So maybe a similar analagy to absorbing high volume to/from a central location (shop) compared to delivery to your/our doorsteps.

WibbleBaaaaaa

Greytopp said:

Why should fixed costs not be included in the price, I mean when you fill up your car you pay for what you get, they don't ask you to contribute to the fixed costs that they have, which are probably quite high.
If you go to a Supermarket to buy food the fixed costs are included in the price.

Good point.